Battery Degredation

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by PRESSTOG, Mar 30, 2018.

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  1. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    It seems to be the new killer topic, everywhere you look the non EVrs are going on about how the batteries will be dead in (2,3,4,5 insert speculation number).

    I keep an extra sharp eye on my battery as it does much more than average mileage and it gets treated hard with constant rapid chargers (Often multiple times a day).

    My car came with a 6 year 100k mile 70% Capacity Battery warranty. (First let me say I will breach that 100k miles somewhere between 2 and 3 years), so its not much use really but then I dont think the manufacturers would have offered that if they expected even 5% of vehicles to need to use it (Not financially viable)

    SO when I purchased my car I decided to write it down over 4 years (140 to 160k miles) Will be the first car in decade I have planned to keep more than a year, I normally buy from a Car Supermarket a 6 month old car, lob another 40k miles on it over a year and sell or trade for a £4k to £5k loss over the time/mileage.

    This time I decided to do it different and bought the Zoe with the plan to keep it for the 4 years (Or until it collapsed if a shorter time)

    With my Previous i3 there was no way to measure battery health and BMW who could check would never divulge, but being honest in the 40k miles I added it didnt seem to change anymore than you would expect from normal driving variations.

    Anyway onto the Zoe, this is handy as it can be told to show the true battery state of Health very easily. So I decided to monitor it roughly every 5k Miles (About the same time it gets a wash and hoover)

    Its been off the road a bit (4 weeks total) due to waiting for some parts, so the mileage is a bit lower than anticipated at the moment.

    NEDC Range for the car is 250 Miles that is total hogswash
    Renault Say Real World is 186 Miles that is about spot on.

    So as I need 140 miles each way to work I figured I would be safe even with a 20% Degradation down to 80% over time. 186 (20% = 37 Miles) 186-37 = 149

    Updated Figures are now (Bearing in Mine people report anywhere from 101 to 103% on delivery but all say it drops to 100% within a few 1000 miles)

    20000 Mile Update.

    Wow that was a fast 2500 miles this time.
    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%

    (FIGURES UPDATED 27th MAY 18)

    So a 2% total drop but only 1% from nominal in over 13k miles. If this stays linear I would be looking at only about 10% to 12% degradation over the life of the car which would be fantastic

    If you compare this to say a small 1.3l Petrol or Diesel pushed to the same miles it would be at EndOfLife at or before these miles easily and looking for an expensive engine change, whereas the EV should still be only 10 to 12% Below optimum

    Will be interesting going forward to see how the degradation changes, will update the thread as I get the figures in.

    CHARGE1.PNG CHARGE2.PNG
     
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    Last edited: May 27, 2018
  2. lovegroova

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    The non-EVrs said the same thing about the batteries in Toyota's hybrids. There has been no widespread reporting of problems with those, so I'd expect a similar story with full EVs (I know some of the technology is different but engineers are pretty clever these days!)
     
  3. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Whilst I find this fascinating, why would a normal engine a replacement at 140K miles? My before where I was now in life I always bought high milers. Starting around 120K miles upwards. No need to replace an engine unless you forget about maintenance and oil changes. They can go on for many hundreds of thousands of miles.
     
  4. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    As I said "Comparing it to a small petrol or Diesel" I dont see many little Clio or similar with 200k on them, yes the big Merc and BMW Diesels in the higher sizes can clatter on for a good 2 to 3 hundred thousand if serviced on a regular basis, but the little engines compared to the Zoe / Clio size dont often have that lifespan (Without major invasive works)
     
  5. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    I guess we have to agree to disagree. No technical reason there at all to draw that distinction...
     
  6. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Having come from 30+ years of Diesels (My first was a 1985 Ford Sierra, I must have really peed off the fleet manager to get that thing).. I would say the thing with them is they are a ticking time bomb, (Especially the small modern ones).. Never know when something major that with outweigh the cost of the car will go pop.
     
  7. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Having Just hit 6 months old at 17500 miles today. Battery SOH is

    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    22nd April 2018 15002 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17503 Miles 98%

    Due for its first service (18k miles) next week still plenty of life in the tyres so basically a change the pollen filter and tick some boxes exercise.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. stblob

    stblob
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    Can the batteries be recycled? What's going to happen to all these batteries when they start scrapping EV's.
    Is this going to be another issue in 50 years time?
     
  9. LV426

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    The component chemicals can be recycled. But first.......when they get to a point where
    (a) their capacity is degraded enough to be of material impact on an EV user (i.e. has limited the car's range sufficiently to make it outside tolerance or usability) but
    (b) is still, in fact a good battery (but with reduced capacity)
    there is the suggestion that they can be redeployed more or less unchanged as storage to supplement solar installations (eg in a domestic environment) so as to extend the use of renewable power into the evening, say.
     
  10. outoftheknow

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    All good in theory. Used lithium batteries tend to be treated as Basel Convention waste as well as dangers goods in transport. Recycling takes a major facility and very few places exist that take them. It is hard to get your used batteries to the recycler and very expensive. They therefore tend to get dumped in landfill and the side of the road in the country they were used in.

    EV manufacturers are supposed to do better of course but it isn’t too clear they do. I think Toyota eventually have a program for their hybrid batteries so they actually deal with batteries they have introduced into the wild. I’m just not sure how transparent each manufacturer of the vehicles is being with what happens to the used batteries on their cars. Hence the reliance on planned plausible theories about how they could be useful for power storage for many years after. I would bet there isn’t a single costed and detailed plan for that sat with EV or hybrid vehicle manufacturers- possibly Toyota excepted.
     
  11. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    My plan is to use the car till the battery hits about 70% (Estimate 3 to 4 years 150-180k Miles)

    It may go a lot longer than that but I figure that is an easy minimum.

    After that there are plans to remove the battery and use it for another 10 to 15 years as home energy storage the 70% capacity will still give over 30kwh oh home storage so even if it degrades to 40% over 15 years it will still be around 18Kwh (More than enough for home use

    By them it will be 20 years or so old and I think the procedures will be in place to deal with them in a much more efficient manner.
     
  12. IronGiant

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    Tesla may well have looked into it as they already do home battery technology.
     
  13. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    20000 Mile Update.

    Wow that was a fast 2500 miles this time.


    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%
     
  14. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%
    11th June 2018 22478 Miles 97%
     
  15. gangzoom

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    This thread is going no where, literally. There is a chap on the Tesla FaceBook group who uses his car to deliver goods from his company. His hit 200K in 34 months, he always charges to 100% and as you expect uses Superchagers every day.

    His degredation.................4%!!!

    But whilst talking to friends about EVs this weekend 'The batteries in your Tesla will need replacing soon woudlnt they??'

    I give up.
     
  16. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Unfortunately a lot of the people who spout this guff are the "NiCad" generation.

    They grew up with batteries that died if you charged them to full or left them empty or actually used them... Bloody annoying how many of them ended up as Journos or Noise generators... People hear it and assume its fact.

    Not sure if you saw the new Leaf review on the Gadget show, Did everything they could to diss the car, then say to the reviewer oh well you are a petrol head arnt you!!.. followed by the fact that is how he is writing a book about EVs and how they are not ready for mainstream yet!!! Balanced much...
     
  17. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Missed it, I don't suppose you remember which episode it was do you?
     
  18. FishDUDE

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    Was the latest episode on a couple of days ago, on five should be on catch up. It was awful - didn’t know Lister was on it now, Criton won’t be happy :)
     
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  19. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    Thanks, I'll have a look.
     
  20. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    25000 Mile Update

    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%
    11th June 2018 22478 Miles 97%
    24th June 2018 24993 Miles 97%

    Well thats about 7.5 Months about 17% of my planned life of the car

    From what I have been told the battery degradation levels off a bit after 95% so will be interesting seeing where it goes going forward

    So if we take it from the initial 101% thats 4% over 25k miles
    or if we take it from Nominal 100% then its 3% over 25k miles

    Even it it stays linear it would still be 80% at 125k miles (at 4% per 25k) or 85% if its the lower
     
  21. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Another 2500 done and the third check stable at 97%

    27500 Mile Update

    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%
    11th June 2018 22478 Miles 97%
    24th June 2018 24993 Miles 97%
    13th July 2018 27475 Miles 97%
     
  22. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    keep 'em coming :thumbsup:
     
  23. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    May be a bit slower for next couple of months .having my summer winddown so not so many trips into London but will keep updating every 2500

    Planning a week touring Ireland and SWMBO wants to do a few theme parks in Germany and maybe Italy so roadtrip :)
     
  24. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Another 2500 done

    30000 Mile Update

    12th Nov 2017 0 Miles 101%
    14th Jan 2018 7250 Miles 100%
    5th Mar 2018 10005 Miles 100%
    25th Mar 2018 13520 Miles 99%
    24th Apr 2018 15003 Miles 99%
    12th May 2018 17502 Miles 98%
    27th May 2018 20011 Miles 98%
    11th June 2018 22478 Miles 97%
    24th June 2018 24993 Miles 97%
    13th July 2018 27475 Miles 97%
    27th July 2018 30004 Miles 96%
     

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