BASS ( an old post renamed b'cos I was bored :) )

Before any real technical explanations spring up I will try and give the simplest answer I can.

When speakers are set as "small" then any bass sounds go to the subwoofer and the speaker just handles the rest of the frequancies

In this mode the subwoofer will produce ALL the bass designed for the speakers set as small AND also the .1 part of the soundtrack

When speakers are set as "LARGE" then the speaker handles all the frequances that are sent to it, however some speakers can not produce these low sounds and this is when you can run into problems.

In this mode the subwoofer will JUST get the .1 part of the soundtrack.

Some amps allow for a BOTH type feature which allows the bass to go to the sub even when the speakers are set to LARGE

Im lucky that the audiophile type design of my amp has meant that I do not have loads of settings which do nothng more than confuse and muddle the basic point of what the amp is trying to do. Im not slating amps with all these options but they do cause problems as things can get confusing

I have ALL my speakers set to LARGE and the bass sent to BOTH speakers and subwoofer. A have a very lively soundstage which is tight and controlled at all times. There is now real slam AND depth in any bass sounds. Never any funny sounds and never do I feel that I am missing any sounds.

My sub is set with MAXIMUM roll off and to the screams of horror from many its set in SLAM mode. All speakers are set to 75db with sub just slightly higher.

At the end of the day ( and many hours of tweaking ) I am now happy with my sound and whilst some people may argue with my reasoning and settings its me that has to listen to it :)
 
Thanks for the reply Duncan,

Sounds like we have a similar approach, with speakers set to large and LFE output enabled as well.

I've calibrated my speakers to 75db as well, but I've also set the sub (Paradigm PDR10 at the moment) to this level. I also have 4 bass shakers attached to the three seater, and that's powered by a 60w/c amp. Even that is set to 75db! I was amazed that the meter registered the shakers, and they were not far out from 75db, so did not need much adjustment.

I want to use a sub that is greater than the amp - the 3802 is 105w, and I really want a sub that is in excess of this so I don't have to have it turned up to far and run it at full blast. Things last longer when they are run well within their limits. :O)

I'm currently doing a little sub research, ans as always, it's a tough dcision without being able to demo many...

Cheers.

Gary.
 
Can i just ask: When you say you set the speakers crossover frequancy at 75hz you are refferring to the setting ''LFE high cut'' which is on my sony db 1070 amp RIGHT? Right now, its on the standard 120hz. So why put it down to 80? Surely on 120 it handles all the bass below 120hz...? ergh its so baffling.

Then theres the subs high cut setting on the sub itself. If the AMPS is at 75hz then what would be the reccomended figure for the sub's? This would be for both music and movies/games.
 
I think that the problem for most people is that they are becoming far to obsessed with frequancy ranges and what HZ ranges they should be using.

Like I said I am DELIGHTED ( and for the first time since getting into HC, which is over 5 years, feel no need at all for an upgrade ) with the way my system now sounds and I have absoultly NO idea what frequancy my speakers or sub is set at. The only thing I no exactly is how loud the speakers are set at.

Do your amps have a basic setting, ie one which just allows a "large" or "small" setting and a setting for what gets the bass ? Try turning off all those more gimmicky features and go back to basics.
 
on a sony amp and most others i sound think, When you set the speakers to small then get option of what point to set the cross over my sony is 80 100 an 120 i think.
This gives you the extra ability to intergrate things that bit better and get a little more out of your speakers.

Im afraid im from the all to small and all bass to the sub camp of thought.

Works for me.

Except when playing cds when i use direct mode with no bass management and rely on the high level connections on my rel Q150 to support my KEF Q55's
 
I'm thinking of getting a Q150 too, what made you decide on this particular Rel, and what did you demo before deciding?

Cheers.

Gary.
 
Man, this thread is going round and round, when it looks like everybody agrees, it starts over again...

Let me give you my piece of advice too:

1- If you set the sub to anything under 120 you loose bass, so it should be kept at max... remember, the .1 specs, 20-120...

2- If you set the crossover at the AV lower than the minimum frequency any of the 5 or 7 speakers go, you also loose bass, the difference between those two freqs... so set the crossover to, at least, the minimum freq of any of your speakers...

3- Freqs under 80 are not directional, so you should set the crossover to 80 or less, remember all your speakers have to go down to 80 (THX spec), otherwise try to place your sub close to the front peakers to minimise this problem...

4- For DVDs just use the low level connection as above, as there is much bass, believe me it is the better solution if you dont have speakers that go down to 20 hz and an amp with enough power to drive them properly...

5- For CDs without much bass, most of them, you can try other solutions, I did and gave up, it is a lot of trying and testing, and the results, most often, aren´t worth it...

Remember this solution will free your speakers and amp from delivering the low bass, witch is a very demanding task, leaving it with the sub, and you get all the info in the recording with the least distortion...
 
to be honest gary all the dealers where are live are rather crap with home cinema with limited choice.
I cross referanced as many reviews of subs as i could.
Decided that Rel were consistently praised and in perticular the q range.
I downloaded the manuals for the q range and like the way you can set up seperately for av and stereo this is something very few do.so i was sold.
Why did i get the 150 and not the 200 ? , simple i couldnt afford it at the time.

Would i get one again ? Yes if i bought one.But after ventureing into bass heads nirvarna im soon to be building one.
Why am i building one ?
Do some searches on "subs" "diy" and "bass" and all will be revield
 
Thanks for the reply Riddler,

Like you I've decided on a Rel. I saw a Q200e for £380 in the HCC classifieds, and it should be arriving on Friday. :)

It's more than I originaly wanted to pay, and I think it's going to be overkill in my loft, but should I move, I'll not have to buy a bigger sub.

I'm looking forward to Friday and I'll probably play The Haunting, Saving Private Ryan, and The Matrix (you probably know which bits) to test it out. I'll post my feelings here sometime after that.

Cheers.

Gary.
 
just out of interest

how is the system sounding now dave ?
 
dave ?
how r things sounding now ?
 
Oh um, well i don't know as i'm at university till mid december. So i can't listen to it all until then which is annoying. But when i got delivery of my LCR600 and pair of 603 S3 i was most pleased. The RELQ200 also sounds punchy, fast and powerful and blends well with music.

I'm not interested in perfect sub integration like i said. I just want a standard set up with reccomended cut off frequancies on the amp and sub to give a 'decent' performance.

What you said about the new B&W series not sounding much different it wrong. In the shop they sound just the same. It isn't until you have them in your room that you can notice the astounding difference in voice. Detail is the most prominant improvement. The old 603's are a different speaker altogether whcih are great in their own way. But i just love the openness of the new ones.

I refuse to put the sub volume right up with other cut offs lower as this makes the bass way too strong. All i want is a reasonably good setup, as i can't tell the difference between a good sub set up and an average one.

I'm going to trade in my 601 s2's and get a pair of S3 as they dont voice match at all, and then some atacama nexus 6 stands for them. Christ, i will end up spending about the same as you have! with about £3000 on everything, but that includes a fair bit of money i have lost by trading old things in. woops.

Still...its cool now. I urge you to check out the lcr600, trust me, remember how much i was complaining about the cc6? and how it wasnt effortless? Well this EXCEEDED my expectations. I'm not ashamed to listen to music through this bitch! So dynamic and meaty.
 
Dave although my sub volume is turned to max on the sub, I have it adjusted on the amp so that it still only gives a volume of around 75DB ( reading on the amp is -8db )

Have demoed the newer speakers in home ( only the 603s ) and yes there is a difference but again not enough to make me shell out the extra money ( even with a part ex deal ) but I can see ( hear ) why you like them.

I guess I am lucky that my amp has that little extra power to get things sounding good and this is probably why I have no complaints from the center speaker.

Like I say I have no grumbles for the first time in years from my system and have no wish to upgrade any of the audio side of things. I believe that all my tweaking and moving has given me the best from my equipment and I am at last very :) with it all.
 
But i can only adust the LFE high cut setting on the amp. as far as im aware i can't adjust every single parameter(eg subwoofer) wo what ever level i like. i can adjust the high cut frequancy on the amp, the subwoofer, and...oh hang on....actually thinking about it, are you talking about the setting where you can adjust things from -10db to +10db? If you are then thats great. I forgot about that. hmmm so that makes 3 different settings to toggle?

This is what i understand you thihk is best:

set LFE high cut on amp to 75hz

set the subwoofer volume control on amp to -8db as apposed to just leaving in zero.


Perhaps me leaving the sub volume thing alone was the thing i was forgetting. But can this still be adjusted when all speakers are set to large? Cuz thats what i keep mine at for convenience sake. I will also have to toggle the other sets of speakers slightly. With this brilliant new centre i no longer have to put up its db higher than the fronts, woohoo.


Ok ill try this set up you suggest with BOTH music AND movies. Isn't it possible to set up 2 configurations in the Q200 by using the 1,2,3,4 phase switch? do i use 1 and 2 or 1 and 3? i know 2 of the settings reverse the bass :/

I'm really happy to hear your content with your setup. But get a new centre speaker!!!!
It's the most important aspect of the 5:1 setup.
 
2 will bypass the sub´s crossover for the LFE connection, but not for high-level, 3 and 4 reverse phase...

Set the crossover in the receiver to 80 hz if all your speakers go down to 80 hz.

I use the connection + 12 db, maybe + 10 db on yours, set the volume to 12 o´clock on the sub, and o db on the calibration menu of the receiver...
 
Mine is set at -8db and with the subs volume set at max it gives me a setting of around 75db. However this will not be the same for you ( or probably anybody else ) it depends on your amp, your sub, your room size, your room layout and tons of ther things.

You really need to get a sound pressure meter, DO NOT BUY ANOTHER THING WITHOUT ONE, they make the world of difference and you can make sure you have all your spekers set at the same volume.

Regarding the center speaker, I have come to the conclusion that it must be an amp thing, the reason is two fold. I have tried my CC6 on a Sony amp ( can not for the life of me remeber the model number but it was the £500 one which won loads of awards about 12 months back ) and it did not sound half as good as it does on my Denon. I have also tried an LCR600 on my home system, yes it sounds good, but again not good enough for the trade in. The only center speaker I have demoed on my amp and would be wiling to trade to is the CDM CNT , which is the only speaker whose improvement to my current one is significant enough to warrant the extra money. I am able to run my CC6 in LARGE mode and it handles all bass thrown at it convincingly and never sounds muddy. Dialouge remains chrisp and clean at all times and never do any subtle effects get lost to any of the other sounds.

Like I said to my system the LCR600 did not make that big a difference to warrant me upgarding to that, actually when set to large there was not much of a difference between the two, however in small mode the LCR600 did sound slightly more roomy and a little bit more deatiled. Because of the difference in small mode I can quite easily except that perhaps on lesser powered amps it does actually improve things, perahps it does not need to be driven as hard as the CC6. This theory also rings true by you saying you no longer have to have the center turned up so high anymore. When I demoed the LCR600 it gave the same reading through a SP meter as the CC6 did with no changes.

Again I must stress how much you NEED to fully calibrate yours system using the amps test tones and a sound pressure meter. To give you some idea just how different each speaker can be set at when the amp is set at 0db, below are the figures for all my speakers, fronts and sub set at 75db rears at 80dbs ( i prefer them this way )

Front Left = -3db
Center = -4db
Front Right = -4db
Surround Right = +2db
Surround Left = +3db
Subwoofer = -9db

So depending on how close you sit to different speakers and how far apart your speakers are from each other really can effect there level of sound output. You can ONLY get an accurate reading using an SP meter and for the sake on £25 or so they are worth every penny. I actully re-calibrate my system once every two weeks or so. Its quick to do and this way I make sure nobody has messed things around.


I NEVER use my sub for music. The 603s when in LARGE mode give more than enough bass. Not only is it quality bass but it has both enough slam and depth and is also very well controlled. When listening to music I set my Denon to DIRECT mode which switches the sub output off automatically and just gives bass from the left and right speakers.


The basics for how your sub should be listened to to start with are. ROLL OFF set to MAX, volume set to 75db ( up to you how you set the volume between amp and sub but it should output 75db or there abouts ) Im not sure how the phase setting works on the Q200 as the Q100 only has two settings but start by doing the two things I suggested.

Do not try and over complicate things for yourself. I think that was my problem for so long and why it took me ages to get a system I was happy with. Start simple and build up. Only alter one thing at a time as this way you will no what has made the difference ( be it better or worse ) and do not excpect instant results. It takes time, espescially with a subwoofer as you have location to consider as well. You only get out what you put in, so spend time calibtating each speaker, making sure they are correctly positioned, correctly wired and all output the same volume.
 
Dave did I mention a sound meter ? :)
I have searched a few sites online and have not found anything suitable however, if all else fails get in contact with MAPLIN. Theres may be more expensive but they are worth the money. If mine broke I would be more than willing to pay £50 or so for a new one ( and thats analouge )
However before that try visiting any local music shops. Places which sell instruments and sheet music. Anywere that sells equipment for bands should be able to get hold of one for you and a good price.
 
Yes Duncan you mentioned the sound meter a few times now. It seems like a worthy thing to buy when i get round to it. Like i said, all this home cinema lark is put on hold till i go home at christmas. It's going to be quite a luxury being home for 4 weeks to use it all. But i've learnt to be content now and not treat it like a 'hobby' but just be happy with what i own and not to worry about upgrading anything until i'm in my own house after university sometime probably in 5 years time. Otherwise whats the point in spending £3000 on equipment if the whole time is spent thinking of the next upgrade? Most people in the hobby are like this, and its a bad thing to do. I'm so pleased that you are tottally happy with your setup now. I appreciate the old 600 series are still amazing speakers, just in a different voice.

When i get home, i'll set it all up, implement my atacama nexus 6 speaker stands that im going to buy, get a sound meter, set up my subwoofer in the way you sugested and if that dosnt work then just go by reccomended settings (80hz, 0db, etc) and just be happy with that. Then FINALLY i can get down to actually ENJOYING using the stuff to watch star wars episode 1, gladiator and i'll be getting a ps2 to use with it too. Even psone games like final fantasy 8 sound brillient. A ps2 will sound awesome with a game like metal gear solid 2 or final fantasy 10. Because although they don't use dolby digital like the xbox, the ps2 still uses a optical out for crystal clear sound and the sound technology of the ps2 to produce the in game audio will be much higher than in psone games. So while not rivalling xbox in terms of surround sound 'effect' the quality and detail of sound should still be terrific. CD quality in fact.

I will still be using my rel q200 for music against your reccomendation because i love the warm punchiness it adds tp music when kept at a sensible volume. You can actually FEEL the bass which gives a nice feeling of warmth with different types of music.


My aim was to have cool surround sound which complemented a dvd playing ps2. Through experience i have far exxeeded this, with a proper music setup, proper dvd player setup and a great little widescreen with a gorgeous picture (panny 28pk3). Still better than 100hz. ooo i can't wait till i go home, but of course i have to enjoy my time here at university as well. I am...but its just that i ALSO can enjoy home too!

Thanks for all your imput over the last months, from my 'b&w centre speakers' topic, through to other topics as well and setting up my rel which isnt so complicated after all. Because im not after perfection, just a solid performance for music and HT.


I'll carry on posting here but it does lose a bit of the exitement when you know you arent going to upgrade for another few years. Oh well...i guess thats where the fun of refining what you already have andfine tuning comes in. Because although im not interested in perfection from my equipment NOW, i can be happy in the knowledge that in the future i can improve my setup even further without even needing to spend any money. And i suppose thats what you are doing now too. YTour happy with it all, your enjoying it, but you are still an active homecinema type guy because you've looked in depth at the settings of everything you have.

talk to you later.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Is 4K Blu-ray Worth It?
Subscribe to our YouTube channel
Back
Top Bottom