Basement conversion - M and K inwall 150 series home cinema conversion

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Building DIY' started by budgieb, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. budgieb

    budgieb
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    Hi All,

    I'm about to do a basement conversion and have quite a few questions if people wouldn't mind helping. I'll also be posting designs etc. and may as well start a build thread as a thank you for anyone reading :)

    After making quite a few calls round to different companies that i believe were potentially equal price performance for M and K inwall 150 series speakers, i had quite a lacklustre amount of feedback and support from most companies when my budget probably wasn't up to their usual clientele or my noob questions kept piling in.

    Not however from Rob Sinden at Gecko Home Cinema, so a big thank you to Rob! who has been very patient with me and was very hospitable with his time hosting me for a demo day and answering all my design questions. So i'm glad to say i will be heading for the below spec:

    7.2.2 Atmos:

    Marantz Receiver
    Lyngdorf TDAi2170 as intelligent slave amp

    3 x MK IW150Mk2 LCR
    6 x MK IW950 side speakers
    2x x10 subs

    65inch LG OLED (prob c8 once release)

    I have been learning how to use Google Sketchup to help support the design stages and hopefully you guys can help answer any queries or point out any errors i am making in advance.
     
  2. budgieb

    budgieb
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    About the build:

    It's limited on space so i will be attempting to host all the kit in the neighbouring (office) room, ideally in some decent rack storage or something.

    I am also building in a semi-detached Edwardian/Victorian house, so i will be trying my best to sort out sound insulation.

    Having looked at green glue etc. and Mass Loaded Vinyl, given the space concerns i am opting for some AcoustiBlok on all walls except the floor. and in the chimney alcoves a resilient channel. Acoustiblok have also been great is discussing and answering my design questions. image 7 shows a way of wrapping the acoustiblock behind the speakers and plugs etc so to not breach the sound barrier without having to cut out and repair the hole to allow for the inwall speakers.

    The basement is using a membrane tanking solution, which i am particularly concerned about resonance etc.

    Due to height restrictions and that i am not opting for underpinning, the floor will be a plywood base. designs to follow. i am particularly concerned with resonance etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  3. budgieb

    budgieb
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    designs as follows:
     

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  4. budgieb

    budgieb
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    Questions:

    1. Does anyone have any experience of basement tanking cinemas? any issues with resonance etc? (note the floor and wall construction images above)
    2. As i aim to house all the equipment next door as per image 3 in the rack, i need to plan carefully cable runs to behind the TV. I was thinking something along the lines of:
      - 3x HDMI (simple redundancy)
      - 2x Cat5e
      - Whilst i have ran in sat (COAX) cable to the rest of my house, i genuinely don't think it is needed these days?
    3. I am slightly concerned about the new updates coming to HDMI, re-running them will be a major problem, and i thought about using some kind of trunking that i could pull through and replace in future but concerned about resonance in the joists etc?
    4. Does anyone think the AcoustiBlok may have issues for any remotes/gaming controls signal being blocked? I might need to consider some in room storage for game consoles etc and HDMI cables etc. say to one of alcoves. i could hopefully rely on a wifi booster/repeater via an in-room Cat5 cable behind couch and control amp etc. via Ipad app or something, but gaming remotes i suspect will be problematic?
    I guess that's enough questions for today, will hopefully get into some more details later depending on feedback here, particularly such as housing Nvidia Shield and should i opt for a seperate UHD BD player, or a PC reader and begin looking at ways to rip stuff to my Plex Media Server etc.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  5. chazman88

    chazman88
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    If your HDMI cable runs are close to or over 8m then you will have to use an active or hybrid fibre HDMI. Standard copper HDMI will not pass full fat 4K HDR.

    Don’t contemplate using Cat5, use Cat6.

    I personally would run atleast 1 coax cable, just means that you can always use the in-built tuner in the TV.
     
  6. budgieb

    budgieb
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    thanks for the reply chazman! much appreciated.

    one of my main concerns has been the hdmi cable runs to be honest. I just measured up the HDMI runs and i expect about 8m will scrape through if i mount the AMP high up, but 10m would be more than enough distance to leave plenty of flexibility at either end. Is it worth running in some conduit?

    Can you recommend any specific cables please? i see these advertised at upto 20 meters but these look passive?:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/CSL-Ethern...=1517358532&sr=8-3&keywords=4k+hdmi+10m+cable

    I have been recommended to look for HDMI premium certified cables:

    (https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/premiumcable/Premium_HDMI_Cable_Certification_Program.aspx)

    but am struggling to find anything around 8/10m. except this which is crazy money:

    10m Premium Certified 4K UltraHD HDMI CABLE - Velox

    i guess at this price fibre optic cables are comparable. what about the active cables? something like this?:

    10m Active HDMI 2.0 Cable - from LINDY UK



    i thought long and hard about the cat5e vs Cat 6 several years ago when i wired up my whole house (other floors) but i opted for cat 5e with the rationale being budget and the rest of the house was only ever going to be low spec systems and the only reason i could see the benefits of cat6 were for HDMI over cat6 balums which i believe are largely a dead technology now particularly since the introduction of HDBase-T which only requires cat5e? Although looking these days products such as HDAnywhere still recommend cat6 i can stick a nvidia shield or similar at the TV locale and stream anything over gigabit ethernet no probs. but i guess price wise these days it's a no brainer. i'll look into cat6 i think.

    regards the coax, i have run coax from the attack to the "node 0" in the office room where i aim to house all my equipment. not sure if there would be any point running another from here to the TV. worse case i would put a live tv streamer in to my Plex server and run via the app i guess. but this is simply my cinema room and not really bothered about classic freeview etc.
     
  7. chazman88

    chazman88
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    If you can run a conduit to enable you to add/replace cables that is your best option but it's not always possible. To get an HDMI head through a conduit and possibly around corners requires a large bore conduit.

    It is my understanding that there is NO standard (copper only) HDMI cable that will guarantee to pass 4K HDR above 8 meters as they cant pass the HDMI Premium tests.

    I personally use the NueTech Active Optical HDMI cables at home and its what we specify for our clients. I'm not 100% sure who sells them to the public though......

    I know @Joe Fernand sells the RuiPro Optical HDMI cables and has a good rapport on these forums.

    We only ever use Cat6 now. Cat5e is only technically rated to 1000Mbps, Cat6 will go to 10Gbps and would be required for the absolute latest HDBaseT that enables full 18G 4K HDR via "Visually Lossless Compression".
    For us, the cost between Cat5e and Cat6 makes it a no-brainer.
     
  8. budgieb

    budgieb
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    thanks mate! i'm reconsidering the location of my kit now, perhaps move in to the room. those cables on google are at £250+ each for 12m. talk about a spanner in the works :'(
     
  9. KelvinS1965

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    Moving my kit out of the room was one of the big improvements when I redid my room recently, so I would try to think around the problem if the cable price is putting you off. Not having any distracting lights really helps IMHO and fade to black is stunning now (JVC X7500, but would be spoilt with equipment LEDs otherwise).

    One option might be putting the player near the projector (ideally one without a display like my X800) and run a long HDMI cable back to the AVR for sound only, but you’d need a player with two HDMI outputs.
     
  10. orange55

    orange55
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    That’s some great speakers you’ve selected. Rob is great, had a demo there myself with Rich from seriouslycinema.

    Designs look good. Have fun.
     
  11. Harkon321

    Harkon321
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    Could you describe the idea behind image 7? Is that on the other side of the wall?
     
  12. budgieb

    budgieb
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    thanks for the advice guys!

    I think i'll opt for the fiber hdmi cables. I'm not getting a projector though as the distance does not warrant it.

    I am however now concerned of the subwoofer speaker cable length. the longest i can find is 10 meters

    Pro Phono - Phono Lead 10m

    does anyone know if there is a maximum length? i wouldn't think so given the size cinemas must use but i can't find and good sources?

    Harkon 321, after speaking with Mike Irvine at acoustibloc who has been brilliant with his advice, basically this is the chosen strategy to install the product. i was left with two options really, as the acoustibloc is best installed closest to source, it should be installed on top of the batons and under the plasterboard, however doing it like this proves problematic for any cut outs: plug socket etc. the advice is to use a putty as a back box however for the 9x speakers + plugs etc, especially given their size it would have become a huge amount of compromise of the sound barrier. by recessing the acoustibloc into the batons where ever there is a speaker, (and placing the insulation over the top) this means i can seal it properly before putting on the plasterboard and the come to the speaker install simply cut the whole and mount them.
     
  13. Harkon321

    Harkon321
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    Get an audio specialist to make up the phono lead to whatever length you need. Allan at Ideal AV has done 2 for me. @Ideal AV
     
  14. chazman88

    chazman88
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    Yep, as Harkon says you can get cables made up to pretty much any length you need.

    If your handy with a soldering iron then you can make your own. If so I can recommend cables and plugs if interested.
     
  15. adam-burnley

    adam-burnley
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    I got mine from a guy on ebay that makes cables to your requirements. You can choose the cable, such as Van Damme Blue / Silver etc., and the colour, along with the preferred RCA connectors, such as Rean, Neutrix, Monster etc. Really competitively priced too.

    I can post the link if of use.

    Regarding length, the only thing I've read is to get double shielded if over a certain distance and likely to get close to other cables.
     
  16. budgieb

    budgieb
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    amazing thanks guys! big relief to know i can house everything next door even if i have to go for extra expensive hdmi :'(
     
  17. Seriously Ltd

    Seriously Ltd
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    Great speaking with you today.
    FYI we also supply the Nuetec Fibre Optic HDMI cables.

    Each cable is tested for 15min before leaving the factory to ensure that they work.
     
  18. budgieb

    budgieb
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    OK so work has finally commenced, thanks for everyone's input so far!

    a few pics below just to show the progress so far. 1st fit of electrics have gone in to the cielings (ready to drop in to place), a few minor changes to the office area where i have removed some walls but other than that the only major change is that i have talked myself in to upgrading to the IW300's rather than the IW150's. rationale being that i will never have to upgrade these if i move house to a larger room :)

    i have bought the Marantz SR7012 which if i am honest, i upgraded from the Pioneer LX-53 which i had to do as this doesn't support 4k or atmos, but demo'ing this on my B&W 600 series 5.1 didn't make that much of an improvement. i used the Dolby Atmos demo disc (2014) and both were very impressive to be honest. no doubt though once this is connected to the MKs there will be a huge difference. something to test once everything is in i guess.

    Also bought 4x Phillips Hue lighting. Having thought it would be nice and simple to make a basic slow fade out from on to off at the start of a move, i have since discovered that the free software is dog sh*t and doesnt have this basic functionality. after hours of research, i have found that there are all kinds of apps that simulate lightning, listen to your music and create a rave, make you feel like you're on a beach etc. but i am still yet to find out how to press a button on my logitech harmony elite and have the light go from full to off in say a 30 second window.... any ideas? i believe iConnectHueHD is highly programmable, but just don't have the time to figure this out at the moment so i'm looking for something nice and simple if anyone has any recommendations please?

    cheers!
     

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  19. budgieb

    budgieb
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    work started pics:
     

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  20. Seriously Ltd

    Seriously Ltd
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    It’s going to be a great room.

    The Marantz will work well with the MK’s. Looking forward to coming up.
     
  21. budgieb

    budgieb
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    cheers richard! and a big thank you for all your support so far! looking forward to getting you up here once it's all in place!

    don't get me wrong, it's working great with the B&Ws! and i have absolutely no concerns that once the MKs go in it will be amazing :) the pioneer it's replacing comes from the same budget level (for the time 8+years ago at least) so i guess i the lack of major improvement at the moment is both a testament to the pioneer amp, but also the limitations of the B&Ws.

    i will definitely be interested to see the performance difference between them on once everything is in place. my current living room is pretty crap regards to the layout etc. so it will be great to see how the room correction really delivers in the basement!
     
  22. Harkon321

    Harkon321
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    Really look forward to progress shots and the finished room. It currently looks like a great place to bury a body and not much else, so fair play for having the vision.

    Looking forward to hearing your thoughts in the MKs.
     
  23. budgieb

    budgieb
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    ok peeps, so i will have to recant on my earlier post regards the Marantz vs Pioneer Amp. Having listened to a few new and old movies, I can happily say that sound is now distinctively better balanced, enveloping and simply a pleasure to listen to.

    Perhaps it was me focusing on the dynamic range of the audio during the Atmos demo's to begin with or just simply my own bias, but after having spent some time getting used to the changes i believe the sound i am listening to in my living room is far better balanced; much less bass, more much rears, but the sweeping effects and ambiance are definitely far superior to the Pioneer amp.
    I suspect this is simply due to the auto correction capabilities of the Marantz rather than the actual amplification capabilities of the Pioneer amp, if that makes sense? i.e. listening to the Atmos demo, the dynamic range etc was very similar, if not on par (especially compared to an earlier £400 sony amp which was very flat) but now it just seems to be configured in a far more coherent fashion. Previously i had had to manually increase the individual levels (using a manual sound pressure meter to get the balance), but now, right off the bat, i haven't touched anything and it seems incredibly well balanced.

    On to the build, last minute changes include a move from 7.2.2 to 5.2.4 with a pre-wire for 7.2.4... I'm hoping the change in overheads is more future proofed as i can easily add the 2x rear speakers whereas if i opted for 7.2.2 the overhead location would be more centrally aligned according to dolby specs, Hopefully, the 5.2.4 over head rears somewhat compensate for the RL and RR speakers? Does anyone have any experience with these different configurations? do you prefer a 5.2.4 or a 7.2.2?

    I'm also now enjoying the full pleasures of ripping my BD movies to MKV via Makemkv and trying my best to figure out what f'ing title/angle to rip... any top tips would be greatly appreciated!

    Many thanks!
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2018
  24. budgieb

    budgieb
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    Sorry it's been a long time, but here are some mid way pics
     

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  25. budgieb

    budgieb
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    some more
     

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  26. budgieb

    budgieb
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    finally finished with the exception of fitting the plinths to kitchen units and shelving etc:
     

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  27. budgieb

    budgieb
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    now i just need to get things like posters and movie memorabilia sorted.

    i will write a review of the kit etc. asap, just a bit busy at the moment. cheers for everyone who contributed any advice!
     
  28. shaikly

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    Hi mate, amazing transformation and room looks great.

    Which flooring have you used?

    Thanks
     
  29. budgieb

    budgieb
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    do you mean the laminate or are you referring to the type of floor? in the end i got enough head height for a concrete base without the need for underpinning :)
     
  30. shaikly

    shaikly
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    i meant the laminate :)
     

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