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Barco Cine 7

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by KarlRobinson, May 18, 2002.

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  1. KarlRobinson

    KarlRobinson
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    Guys, I am looking to buy a Barco Cine 7. After just going to the Barco website I have downloaded a program that calculates screen width to projector distance. Putting in my screen a 16x9 with a width of 96 inches it says I need a distance between the front of the projector and the screen of 128.6 inches. This seems a very small amount better than 1:1.5 throw.

    Is this correct ??
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    My advice would be to ignore all published specs like this and work out exact positioning once it's in the builduing. The timings and scan rate of the signals you send a projector can affect how large an image is produced at a given distance as well...

    Now having said that you can usually place a projector nearer the screen when using it in 16:9 than when in 4:3. This is due to the fact they are usually keystoned to get image geometry correct. If you are using a 0 degree projection angle (which is unlikely unless it's a rear projection without mirrors) then you couldn't though. This is hard to explain without diagrams or by showing physically....

    I'd work out the throw for 4:3 and see if it works out at about 1:1.4 ish. Roland is bound to pop around soon and give you the definative answer though!

    Gordon
     
  3. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    One and a half times the screen width is about right for a CRT in general. the Cine 7 uses very wide tubes for its size.

    Your figure is spot on and this is where it MUST go or you will reduce the life very quickly either by burning or busting the tubes.
     
  4. KarlRobinson

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    Great, I'm happy if that figure is correct. I was just concerned that it was wrong. Thanks for you help
     
  5. uncle eric

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    Karl,
    Good advice from Roland and Gordon as usual.
    Having installed a few Cine 7's can I also suggest something.
    96" IMO is a little on the large side for this projector even with controlled ambient lighting situations. Going down to 7ft would give you a good increase of snap to the image.
    Of course I don't know which gain screen you will use but I'm presuming 1.3 gain which IMO is optimum for CRT PJ's.

    I use 87" wide 1.3 gain screen for my 808s which works very well indeed.

    Regards
    Eric
     
  6. KarlRobinson

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    I haven't got the screen yet or the projector yet. I saw the 7 with a 7ft screen and was very impressed. Im guessing that the 8 or 9 is even better.

    Eric, would you say I'd need a Cine 8 to get the same level of brightness on a 8ft screen that I saw the Cine 7 on a 7ft screen?
    Or would a higher gain screen solve this.

    I was guessing that an 8ft screen was well within a Cine 7's range. The room is in complete darkness.
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Karl,

    The recommended light level suggested for home cinema use in a light controlled room is around, or at least 8ft Lamberts. The usual cinema is around 13-16 and a TV, set up well is around 30 or so.

    Here's what I work out for Cine7 and Cine8...

    Cine 7:
    STUD130 VIDEMATTE200
    7FT WIDE 6.37 8.82
    8FT 4.88 6.75
    9FT 3.85 5.33


    Cine 8:

    7FT 7.78 10.78
    8FT 5.96 8.25
    9FT 4.71 6.52


    From this you can see that you saw the cine7 in a situation where, the experts, would suggest you were not getting enough light output for best image. This is probably true but without seeing the difference you made the judgement that it was more than acceptable. So take the 8FT lambert thing with a pinch of salt. Smaller is definately better in the CRT stakes but don't let 8ft lamberts be an arbitary figure below which you cannot go.

    The higher the gain of the screen the more other problems become aparent which is why Eric and I would advocate Studiotek 130 material. If no-one is sitting off axis of the screen then a higher gain material may be useful. There is an articel on this site and on may own about how to choose the best screen frame and material for your cinema. It's worth giving a read through. I would suggest keeping it down to around 7ft wide and using Studiotek 130....

    Gordon

    p.s. Eric's 808s on his screen just creeps in at 8.28ft Lamberts.....Just as well or Sergeant Fraser of the Video Police would be knocking on his door!:D
     
  8. KarlRobinson

    KarlRobinson
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    Lets assume I am using a Studio 130.

    Looking at the light levels a Cine 8 would equal a Cine 7 - 7ft but on a 8ft Screen.

    Is this the answer if I want 8ft?
    Looking at your info, if would seem that I need a higer gain screen anyway, what are the limitations of this?

    Is 7ft the general max of CRT?
    Does the picture look a lot worse on 8ft?

    Should I just shutup and go with a 7ft?

    Thanks for all the help, but I would love an 8ft screen.
     
  9. KarlRobinson

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    Just asked a few people to quote on a 7ft and 8ft motorised 16 x 9 screen and have been told that they only do a 87" width (7.25ft) or a 107" (8.9ft), surely they must do something inbetween?

    One other thing, if you have a very narrow viewing angle say 10-15 degrees are there any negative points about a higher say 2.0 gain screen?
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Karl,

    You are obviously talking to the wrong people regarding screens.....

    Most screen manufacturers will do custom sizes to suit your requirments.

    Stewarts 16:9's are usually 72" then 80" then 87" wide VIEWABLE area standard sizes. They'll do any size you want though for a small premium.

    VuTec go from 70" then 96" or something like that as their standards..Not sure about Draper, OWL or Da-Lite.

    Narrow viewing angle with higher gain screens is a good thing as you get coluor shift if you sit off to sides. Also high gain screens behave like the screens in rear projection TV sets. So if you've ever been to look at these in Comet you'll know that as you move off axis the contrast disappears and the picture looks a bit dim...you'll also notice that right in the middle the screen looks brighter than at the sides if you sit bang on centre line....

    Now, I have a client with a Seleco500crt on a 9ft wide studiotek130 screen. The rules say you can't do it, it's too dim.
    In fact it works out at 3ft lamberts! The room is VERY dark though. Dark blue walls and ceiling and black out blinds. I know the image would be better on a 7ft screen but there is no doubting that it's a VERY watchable image.

    High gain screens may also look a little streaky. This is because they use rough sort of beaded material that acts as a lens to focus the light back towards the viewer. In my experience there are times when you can actually see the screen surface and how it is made while watching the image. I find this slightly distracting. Studiotek130 is very smooth in comparison and doesn't tend to get in the way of the film.

    If you can afford it I'd buy a Cine8 anyway as it's a much better projector but I wouldn't get too worried about having an 8ft screen with the 7.

    Gordon
     
  11. Roland @ B4

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    Well yes but.....
    These figures are only correct for a projector that is used at its optimum.

    IE feed a line doubled image to a Cine 7 and Cine 8 and the 7 will be much brighter than the 8 because the number of lines presented is not sufficient to fully utilise the resoloution of the 8" electromagnetic focus.

    I think you would be hard pushed to see the difference in brightness between the two "properly" driven. but depending on what scaller you use to drive the projector the differnce in sharpness and resoloution could be stunning.

    Quite frankly the figures quoted are ideals and would be nice to achieve, if we were going for a THX certified home cinema then may be, but in reality a Cine 7 can be pushed to an 8 or 9 ft screen and produce very good results.
    (Have you ever noticed that it is the screen manufactures who quote what size you are required to have, never the projector maker, why is that?)

    My advice would be to see the two projectors side by side with the relevant scaller and on the same screen material and properly setup there is only one true expert needed and that is you, if the system works for you then it is right.

    Be very careful of all these figures there is far more to this than just light output or you would be buying a lamped projector.
     
  12. KarlRobinson

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    So one last question, should I pay the extra for the built in Barco scaler or get an external one?

    What external ones could u recommend with a Cine 7?
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK I think Roland is being nice here.........

    I was trying to be kind. As he suggests the figures I quoted are just that ...figures. The reality is different, as we have both said, there is much more to it than that. Given identical conditions smaller is better but 7ft in magniolia wall land is different.

    The ideal solution is to view for yourself!

    Gordon
     
  14. Roland @ B4

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    Karl, the Barco Limopro IS worth the extra. I would certainly rate it higher than say the Quadscan.

    The Cine 7 probably runs best in 16x9 mode in line trippling mode.

    After that a Rock light might be a good option.
     
  15. Sammy Jankis

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    Hello

    Sorry to interrupt, I'm not an expert but I would like to say I have a Barco 708 (not as good as a cine 7 but close enough) projecting onto an eight foot owl screen and the picture is quite often stunning. This is using the Barco line doubler in the projector and fed by a Pioneer 737.
    The best way to find out if a projector can do what you want is to see for yourself, what is awful to some people may be amazing to others.
    Good luck.

    Sammy
     
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