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Bad news on The Return of the King

Discussion in 'TV Show Forum' started by Garrett, Nov 12, 2003.

  1. Garrett

    Garrett
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    I have just heard Christopher Lee’s scenes from The Return of the King (third part of Lord of the Rings) have been cut out.


    For news on the cut go here

    And if you want to add to the petition to get it put back into the film go here
     
  2. KraGorn

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    Sadly true .. TORn have a copy of the e-mail from Jackson explaining the reasoning.

    Seems to me he should have figured this out before so he could put the footage where he originally planned it and included it on the TTT:EE DVDs. :mad:

    The petition has no chance, Jackson was supposed to deliver the finished film on Nov. 1, the first showing is booked for Dec. 1st IIRC and the first public limited one on Dec. 5th. I'm sure Jackson realises the pilloring he's going to get, probably far more than the outcry of the perversion of Faramir's motivation in TTT.

    I actually agree with his reasons for not including it in RoTK .. his faux pas was NOT using it where he originally planned.
     
  3. Dimmy

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    This is HIGHLY infuriating.

    As I feared, they've bent the entire context of the original story for the sake of 'Cinematic Tension' - which basically means dumbing the book down for the more 'Simple Minded' movie goer.

    I can't believe Peter Jackson has done this, I Loved christopher Lee's character in both the former movies - and we never saw his demise in TTT, I suppose we're supposed to 'assume' he was killed by ents !?
     
  4. seany

    seany
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    That stinks, you bet your life it has a lot to do with dvd sales.
     
  5. Miyazaki

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    MY GOD Dimmy,

    I actually AGREE with something you have to say ;)
     
  6. SILVERBACK

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    what a disgrace christopher lee deserves more than that,and i just read an article saying he will not be going to the premier
     
  7. Dimmy

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    Glad to hear it :D

    It's not JUST that we've lost a key character. It's that the two previous movies relied extremely heavily on Christopher Lee to attain any sort of Mythical Tone to the film's proceedings. Now the entire onus is on poor-ol' Ian McKellen.

    Elijah Wood, Vigo Mortensen? Hardly timeless and mythical are they now!

    My expectations for Return of The King have just plummetted. I think I'm beginning to understand the same sort of feelings of disappointement some people got when they saw The Matrix sequels :laugh:.
     
  8. GrahamC

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    I bet you all go an see it though. :D
     
  9. FWA.jr

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    Dimmy. You are wrong.

    No way do they want to put the 'scouring of the shire' at the end of the movie. It would kill it. So the only other real option to deal with Saruman is to kill him at the start of Return of the King. Which is perhaps more of an injustice to the book and would totally set RotK off on the wrong foot. Secondly, Lee's scenes are there and are to be used in the Extended edition, so its not a total loss.

    And although I disagree with you when you say that Christopher Lee was the only real mystical element, thats not what these films are about. Well, a lesser element than more transcendant themes anyway. RotK is more about getting on your knees and crawling to the top of a god-damned mountain and doing what you've got to do. I cant stand obbseive fans of the books obsessing over every goddamn detail at the expense of the bigger picture in these films. My local cinema nearly had a triple homicide to deal with when on opening night I nearly lost my temper at three fans who groaned in agony, and out-stretched their arms to the screen as elves arrived Helms Deep.

    Return of the King is a big book, bigger than the Two Towers. Like Sam and Frodo, they have to press on.
     
  10. Garrett

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    So everybody now has to wait a year, have a DVD player and has to rent it or buy the DVD to see part of the story that should be in the film in the first place. Christopher Lee’s character is a major player in the story.
    It is a bit like, say Goldfinger, and have him plan everything up the raid on Fort Knox then him not appearing in the rest of the film.
    The missing bit s only 7 minutes long and the film 3 hours, not much extra is it.

    I can assure you if I do not get dragged to the pictures I will be joining Chris in boycott it.
     
  11. Gary D

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    i personally find it a bit frustrating - but i have all the faith in the world in PJ - he hasn't done us wrong so far.

    so just have faith and dont get your knickers in a twist about it - PJ is a directing GOD and he knows what hes doing.


    Gary
     
  12. Garrett

    Garrett
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    And how would fans of the Matrix have felt if Agent Smith had not been in the final part of the Matrix trilogy, or Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi?
     
  13. Ian Cox

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    This type of thing has happened each time one of the LOTR films has been released. A rumour starts on the net that something is missing or the plot has been changed from the book and everyone goes into a flat panic and says they are not going to see the film. Then once the film is released everyone can not stop praising it enough and forgets about it.

    For me it will be a shame not to see Christopher Lee's scene on the cinema release as I was looking forward to it but for those who know the last book Sarumans role is pretty much nonexistent, if you discount the scouring. He really has nothing major to do plot wise in the last book and if PJ thinks it will setup the narrative tension better by leaving this scene out then I for one trust him because he has not done hardly anything wrong so far with the first two films.

    So before you all start putting petitions on the net demanding CL gets put back in have some faith in PJ I am sure he is going to deliver ;)
     
  14. Ian Cox

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    **Possible spoilers**










    Garrett this comparison is not quite correct. It is Sauron and not Saruman who is the real bad guy in LOTR, Saruman is just one of his henchmen, nothing more. I know Saruman has been the prominent bad guy so far as he is human and Sauron is just a lidless eye but when it comes to the final film you will see that it truly is Sauron who has all the power.
     
  15. Garrett

    Garrett
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    Yes I know that Sauron is the big villain but so far for the last 6 hours or so it has been Saruman who has been the main bad guy, albeit a henchman so to drop him just like that, then may be just say such and such a thing happened to him in passing or be left thinking he has got away scott free is pretty poor fair.


    Warning some of the following posts contain Spoilers with out warnings.
     
  16. pointon

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    I don't care.
     
  17. KraGorn

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    IMHO, this is less of a crime than the perversion of Faramir's character which Jackson perpetrated ... it never seemed sensible to leave Saruman's demise till RoTK, given Jackson had always made clear Scouring wasn't in the film, it belonged at the end of TTT .. another error in Jackson's judegement not leaving it where he planned it.

    It's a real bummer for Chris Lee, I feel sorry for him and the shoddy way he seems to have been treated, however again IMHO the absence of Saruman's demise barely impinges on the story in RoTK ... I can easily live with it. :)
     
  18. FoxyMulder

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    The conclusion i drew from the end of The Twin Towers was that Christopher Lee's character had escaped, to just drop him from the cinema version is pathetic, to justify it by saying itll be on the extended edition DVD is also pathetic, those cinema goers who don't buy the DVD or never go near the extended edition will be mightily annoyed.
     
  19. Dimmy

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    What on earth are you talking about? You're just disagreeing with me for the hell of it now.

    I never said Christopher Lee was the only "real mystical element", read my post again. And I certainately don't have homocidal tendancies deriving from a reality-obsessive transgression of the books.

    ROTK is about the content and story of the book, "getting on your knees and crawling to the top of a god-damned mountain" only takes up a very small proportion of the book, and isn't what the story is 'About'.

    And I didn't suggest the 'Scourning Of The Shire' scene should be included, nor did I complain that the film was originally adapting the book so that Saruman would meet his demise at the start of the movie...

    Again - I haven't the slightest as to why you directed your post at me.
     
  20. KraGorn

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    Um, yes it is. :) .. made more so if that's possible by the absence of the Scouring chapter.

    I can't cite the book, memory's not good enough, but as is pointed out in the narrative to the RoTK preview on the TTT theatrical DVD, and also a one-liner from Aragorn in the RoTK trailer, "at least we can give Frodo a chance" and the "things are in motion" speach by Gandalf, it's ALL ABOUT whether Frodo and Sam can complete their mission ... everything else is in support of that and without it everything else is futile ... again, Faramir's one-liner from the Preview sum it up: "we cannot win by force of arms" .. thus all the battles and heroics on the Pelennor Fields, spectacular as they are (and will be) are not the key issue, if Frodo fails all is lost. Yes, there are many moving moments for most of the other characters of the Fellowship and those they have met, but the focus isn't on them.

    On this basis, Saruman's fate is irrelevant, albeit my view on his absence is clear: it's a major mistake that it wasn't in TTT.
     
  21. deckard

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    I probably agree that including the Battle of Bywater etc at the end of the film would not be a wise idea. However, what about Wormtongue throwing the palantir from Orthanc and Aragorn subsequently using it to challenge Sauron? There's a big opportunity missed there I believe...:(
     
  22. Rambo John J

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    not strictly true. They sell the extended version of the films on vhs too.
     
  23. KraGorn

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    Actually you raise an interesting problem I'd overlooked with this sequence now removed .. there are already screen-shots in semi-official places showing Pippin stealing the Palantir, and also the "he's gone unchallenged long enough" comment from Aragorn in the trailer .. I wonder how Jackson proposes to suddenly magic the Palantir out of Orthanc now that it's not going to make its' appearance in the expected scene? :confused:
     
  24. FWA.jr

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    Get over it. It's not personal.

    Everything else is such a shallow decoy for Frodo getting rid of the ring. It's quite funny that in most movies of late the huge action scenes are just plain, ponitless and shallow with dellusions of grandeur. With this baby everyone knows there's no immediate point to the battle (other than survival) and that they are just a decoy. Extrmely brave and noble decoys cause they do it anyway.
     
  25. FoxyMulder

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    I havent read the book, i'm sure countless others haven't either which is why not including Christopher Lee's demise in the film until the extended DVD arrives is going to confuse some people, not everyone who watches this has read the books.

    I'm sure these films WILL encourage people to now read the books but for 2 films we have seen Saruman directing the bad guys and doing evil things and he wasn't KILLED at the end of the last film and now he won't be in the 3rd film when it opens at cinemas, sorry but botton line is for those of us who haven't read these books this is going to be very very confusing as we wonder what has happened to this character, of course i already know being a member of these forums but millions of people around the planet who go to the cinema to watch it will wonder.
     
  26. FWA.jr

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    but you haven't seen Return of the King yet. We dont actually have to see him to find out what happens to him.
     
  27. keiths

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    I agree entirely. Jackson was always on a hiding to nothing with Lord of the Rings as many of the Tolkien Fan-boys were sure to get picky about any changes made to the sacred story. But he also knew that a faithful (to the books) movie adaptation of the trilogy was impossible.

    SPOILER - highlight to read

    The main theme of RotK is DESTINY - Aragorn overcoming his demons - the failures of his ancestors - and the final acceptance of his destiny to "become what you were born to be", the Elves' destiny to leave Middle Earth and Frodo's destiny to complete his quest.

    The Scouring of the Shire is used in the book to demonstrate how much the Hobbits have developed and are now not vulnerable and child-like but are able to take care of themselves without Gandalf or Aragorns help. To include the Scouring at the end of the film wouldn't work, so Jackson chose to omit it (just as he has done with the Tom Bombadil bits and countless other parts of the book). Without the Scouring, there is no real need for Wormtongue and Saruman (other than the Palantir incident - which is easy to overcome).

    Wormtongue and Saruman's demises can either be implied (not unreasonable to suppose that the Ents sorted them out - after all that's the reason they marched on Isengard in the first place), or hinted at by dialogue.

    I love the books but understand why Jackson has to make these sort of changes to produce a better film. I'm happy to trust his judgement on this one.
     
  28. Rambo John J

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    personally I'll wait til I've seen it.
    If it entertains me then I can't ask for more than that. I've never read the books so I'm happy to leave it all in the hands of someone that has, that loves them, and that gave it his best shot. And then I'll lap up the extended ROTK when that arrives same as with both the other 2 films and marvel at all the new footage that should/shouldn't have been cut out in the first place
     
  29. bowenjones

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    If Saruman's demise is explained in ROTK then it will clarify things
    for those who haven't read the books, like myself. If not, then
    i'm with Foxy on this as it will cause confusion to what happened to the character. We'll have to wait and see.
    Mind you, it's got me a little excited knowing that this scene will
    be included in the EE dvd when it comes out as the extra scenes
    in the previous two films have enhanced the story greatly.
    I must say though that i'm glad I haven't read the books as I
    would probably be one of those nit-pickers too ;)
     
  30. dsw182

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    POSSIBLE SPOILERS

    Does it really matter THAT much? You must know that almost no book can be completely retold on film, page by page. It just wouldn't work. Peter Jackson has found that Saruman's death doesn't need to be in there, so he's dropped it. Why worry about it? You'll get to see the scenes on DVD anyway.

    It seems to me that seeing his death is fairly irrelevant. As his forces have been wiped out by the flood/tree extravaganza, one could assume that Saruman has been taken out of the game & is no longer a real threat, especially when compared to Sauron & the ring.
     

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