Bad for your eyes?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Mannannan, Apr 20, 2004.

  1. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    first off please don't kill me.

    As I'm this close to getting a DLP benq6200 in US. I have a worry.

    I've only seen rainbows on the THX aspect optimiser, and some colour separation on Nick Cages suit in matchstick men. Could have felt a bit of eyestrain but I may just have been tired. This on a business unit from work.

    Even if you don't see rainbows, you may get headaches, if you don't get headaches you may feel nausea, if you don't get nausea you may get eyestrain. Which brings me to the point....

    I am afraid that this sequential colour technology could be bad for your eyesight even if you have no strong reactions, based on the fact that it causes difficulty for some and therefore is physiologically not-a-good-idea even if you are not so bothered.

    Can't find anything on this possibility anywhere

    Can anybody put my mind at ease?

    :lease:
     
  2. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    bump?

    Why will nobody answer this?
    I've been reading threads here for quite a while and it seems quite friendly.

    What have I done? over 130 views and no replies!!!!
     
  3. Gillykid

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    Dont think its personal matey - probably more likely no one knows.

    Personally I have never seen rainbows, but have never looked at a DLP either!

    My guess is that your eyes just see what your eyes see, so I can't see why it would actually cause any damage - but I may be talking out of my....
     
  4. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    Thanks for the reassurance Gillykid.

    Surely somebody has thought this before though?
    Is there an eye doctor in the house?
     
  5. docfeelgood

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    I guess watching any big moving image, regularly, in the dark, for long periods of time is gonna strain your porky pies.

    However a lot of people find DLP more fatiguing to watch... even if they don't see rod jane and freddy.

    So I guess...in that case.... DLP's are worse for the eyes than LCD's.

    Then again I could also be talking out of my....

    :)
     
  6. Quatermass

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    Well at the risk of joining the “i'm talking out of my you know where club”....I think rainbows have more to do with problems in the visual processing centres of the brain than with your eyes. Whether these problems eventually send DLP owners slightly ga-ga – er, no comment! :)
     
  7. Louis Mazzini

    Louis Mazzini
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    Again, just from my own point of view with no special knowledge, I think you have a good point. I also think that the whole rainbow issue is a huge red (and green & blue) herring; by far the bigger issue is the eyestrain/headache problem.

    I really wanted to buy a DLP and looked at several; rainbows were there to be found on all of them (quality range from Infocus 4800 - rainbowing like crazy - to the Sim2 Domino) and ALL of them made me feel in some way uncomfortable. It was very disappointing, since the image on all of them was probably better (albeit frequently only very slightly) than the Panasonic AE500 I eventually - just - bought. I could have easily lived with any of them (apart from the cheap Infocus) based on their rainbows, but couldn't live with any because of the eyestrain problems.

    Like you say, the sequential colour technique is presumably the culprit for these problems - but there doesn't seem to be a great deal of information around on how bad this is for you, or even if it's a problem at all (in my mind - my aching mind - it is). After staring at a monitor all day, I think my eyes need a rest, rather than more aggro courtesy of DLP.

    So, until three-chip DLPs become affordable (i.e. cheap!), I'll stick with the imperfect blacks of my LCD, along with its detail, beautiful colours and pain-free viewing.
     
  8. Kramer

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    The average owner here would seem to view less than 20 hours per week (excluding Calibos that is :D).

    I wouldn't imagine 3 or 4 movies per week on a DLP (even an X1 :eek:) would cause eye damage. DLPs are being used commercially in €uropean cinemas also & I can't see anyone risking law suits (claims of eye strain/damage from paying punters).

    I'd be more worried about developing "couch potatoe syndrome" TBH.

    :smoke:
     
  9. William123

    William123
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    Nothing quite like cultivating your King Edwards on a sofa.......maybe I should change my choice of movies :D
     
  10. Thunder

    Thunder
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    Im an optician, it wont do your eyes any harm at all, people having different colour perception is no different to one person having better hearing than another or having one hand bigger than the other. Men in particular have poor colour vision and some people will be able to see parts of the spectrum that others cant. watching a projected image is actually much less straining than watching a CRT/plasma/LCD display as you are looking at reflected light.
     
  11. BadAss

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    ALso look at reading. Now thats a definate eye strainer but no one gives a toss about how many books they read. How many books come with warningson the back that says reading can lead to perminant eye damage? And what percentage of people who read every day then go on to wear glasses?

    Just watching a bigger image will give u fatige but i dont think it has anything to do with the differences between DLP rainbows.

    A mate of mine has two LCD displays one on his desktop and another on his laptop and he says the one he would rather use was the one which wasn't as bright. So if you suffer from fatige/eye strain id suggest turning down the brightness first and then see if it goes away.
     
  12. MikeD

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    Wow Thunder, I'll bet no one here saw that one coming.


    Mannannan why not buy the Benq anyway as it has a reputation for being a very good projector. It's unlikely you'll have a problem but even if you do you'll easily get your money back selling it on in Europe as you will have saved so much buying it in the USA.

    Why not demo the new Optoma H30 first, Optoma claim it's the first projector developed specifically for European Home Theatre and it has a three year hot swap warranty.
    All I can say is that it is an amazing projector that in my opinion is about to take the market here by storm and already is in the USA.
    I think it could be quite a bit cheaper than the Benq if bought in the USA.

    Getting back to the plot, If I remember rightly the review of the 6200 and 6100 on Projectorcentral saw little difference in the picture quality of both when used for HT use even though the 6200 is higher in resolution.

    Is the higher resolution worth the extra money, I don't know I havent seen either of them would someone who has like to comment?

    MikeD
     
  13. Paul Williams

    Paul Williams
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    Hi Kramer,

    Just watch all three Matrix films, one after the other, on my X1:eek: and can confirm no ill effects, except a slight case of :boring: part way through.

    Paul.
     
  14. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    Back in the office, nice to see the replies.

    Thunder: Cheers, nice to get a professional opinion. I hope you really are an optician, :laugh:

    MikeD: Yeah, I'll try and get a demo of that H30 all right, I was drawn to the benq 6200 as it seems to be the best I can afford. and it is slightly brighter so I can have more flexibility with lighting conditions since I'll be losing light output on 16:9 material already.
    I'm going over in June so maybe it'll be clearer to me by then.

    Kramer: Surely the cinema DLPs are 3 chip?

    BadAss: what are these book things you speak off? perhaps they are some other form of home entertainment, is there a forum?

    seriously though your right about the brightness especially in a dark room.
     
  15. G a f f e r

    G a f f e r
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    Might do......

    ...then again, I can think of other activities that make you go blind :devil:

    Seriously though, rainbows may cause headaches which is a symptom in itself very distressing for those affected. More serious is the likelihood of have epileptiform attacks when viewing (repeated) flashes of light (like at the beginning of pitch black - worryingly there's no warning on the dvd). This is another physiological side effect regardless of projector. It also doesn't obey temporal rules in that it doesn't really matter how long you watch for, you may or may not fit at any time if you're prone. BTW, before you say But Im Not Epileptic, research indicates that up to 80% of those affected by siezures related to viewing films/games/etc, DID NOT know they were prone to siezures beforehand. I know fitting is a different matter entirely but the point I'm trying to get to is that not all people have siezures and those that do, may not know they do........which may be similar if we end up finding a side effect issue with DLP technology in the future.
    So it doesn't necessarily follow that it is physiologically not-a-good-idea. Again, an example of the other well known problem =I work in a childrens hospital and we often find that of the new cases of fitting, it is often difficult to predict who will fit and when, even with hindsight. We just don't know. So as this DLP technology is relatively new, we won't know the physiological long term effects (if any) until a long term has passed, dlp's are more widespread, and cases start to appear (as far as I'm aware, nothing has been reported/published so far wrt DLP and possible side effects).
    Medicine is not a very precise science and, unfortunately, people sometimes only know about a problem when the **** hits the fan (thalidomide for instance).
    Having said all that, with the current take up of this technology, the period of time it takes before effects crop up will depend (of course) on the incindence rate and proportion of people effected. If it's anything like the "fitting with flashes" phenomenon, that might take years.........
     
  16. Quatermass

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    I believe some Epilepsy associations are now recommending that if their members buy a projector then they get an LCD one rather than a DLP. From what I have read the problem with DLP is that the brain has difficulties in processing the sequenced RGB components into a unified image. With a rainbow effect you are continuing to see the “split” image. If this is happening subliminally then the manifestation will be “visual fatigue” rather than rainbows and their associated symptoms. However, going on the above post, possibly worse things could be happening!!
     
  17. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    Check this out.

    you can expect some bias on the source and D-ILA is very expensive, but this talk of subliminal effects and long term comfort might be enough to convince me to be happy with an LCD until the other technologies come down in price, (3 panel DLP and D-ILA).

    Maybe the Z2 or the Panny 500 will keep me satisfied for 3 years or so?????

    Now my head hurts from thinking about what to do.
     
  18. Quatermass

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    It is interesting though that a number of people on the forum have said that over time they have got used to DLP effects and symptoms like headaches and nausea have reduced/disappeared. Maybe suggests that the brain (or rather some brains!!) can adapt to the situation. I agree though that it is all rather difficult!
     
  19. Paul Williams

    Paul Williams
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    It’s quite bad enough to read all the paranoia surrounding rainbow artefacts without now having the use of these machines now linked to the potential of epileptic seizures. It would seem to me that given the litigious nature of the US, where units like the Infocus X1 are high volume sellers, that if there was even an outside chance of this happening, these units would have been withdrawn from the market.

    Paul
     
  20. G a f f e r

    G a f f e r
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    Nobody's linking dlp's to anything (well i'm certainly not anyway). Epileptiform siezures are just an EXAMPLE of ANOTHER side effect (it's UNRELATED but a good enough example of other problems with technology in general - if you read my post, I did explain this (i certainly don't want to give people the wrong impression - as I said, NOTHING has been linked to DLP's)). Epilepsy associations can recommend what they want.....remember, as yet they have no scientific basis for any seriously harmful physiological effect so they can't (and shouldn't) really make recommendations for that. Also, as yet there isn't even a working neurological hypothesis for the effects of DLP's or why we see rainbows - at the moment it's all just conjecture. I'm sorry but without a working scientific hypothesis of an occurence OR any documented case reports, people can recommend what they want - I'll take it with a pinch of salt. The whole point is that as yet We don't know much about it and need more time/research first before the first posts qiestion can be answered.

    Litiginous nature of US...yes.
    Did it stop them catching thalidomide in time? or MSG induced neural degeneration? or HIV? Or killing their own troops in war by using too much induction agent (ww2 i think)? or the harmful side effect of many chemical fertilizers?....well I could go on and on but you get my point.

    Just to make it clear - I don't want to scare anyone or imply anything unproven.............(sorry If I didn't state it clearly enough in my earlier post------have a mug of horlicks on me) :beer:
     
  21. Paul Williams

    Paul Williams
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    Hi Gaffer74,

    Whilst I agree you didn't explicitly link DLP projectors to Photosensitive epilepsy, but the implication is there. Then given that the following posts take this implication further, one with a link to a JVC paper on “Visual Fatigue and Temporal Artifacts in Projection Displays”. No mention of course that JVC are heavily into the development of D-ILA technology, unless of course you read the paper to the end.;) I did in fact read your post several times before responding (and believe I understand your viewpoint) I was also aware of paper above, before the link was posted on this thread.

    I don’t currently believe there are any recommendations from the of the British Epilepsy Association on types of projector but anyone who has any concerns feel free to check on http://www.epilepsy.org.uk/index.html :smashin:

    Perhaps I’m just far to sensitive, but there are always just too many thing to worry about these days. At least if you do end up suffering a seizure whilst watching a movie it will be in the comfort of a chair.

    Paul
     
  22. Mannannan

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    Just to clarify,

    That was my post that linked the JVC paper, and I did mention (stating the bleeding obvious) that you can expect it to be biased being from JVC, much like the papers from dolby digital and from DTS, and like the projector torture test Texas instruments did a while back, pinches of salt all around thanks.

    My reading of the paper was more concerned with the visual fatigue than the epilepsy.

    But the original point of the post is that:
    1. DLP causes discomfort for some people, which at it's mildest for sufferers is noticable eyestrain.

    2. Eyestrain may lead to a deterioration of visual acuity (is this a correct statement?).

    3. Since discomfort is your body (eyes) telling you to stop doing the thing that is causing the discomfort, it is likely bad for you. Maybe it is also bad for those of us who do not percieve the discomfort except so mildly as not to be bothered.

    4. Epilepsy was not the point of this thread.
    It was "could I end up needing glasses from buying a DLP instead of an LCD, and why has nobody mentioned this before?"

    5. Of course, there are things that are much worse for us that we all do, but in this restricted question of "which projector for me?" (that comes up here all the time) I think a lot of people would sacrifice a bit of picture quality if there was even a possibility that that the alternative would damage them in some way.

    6. People with children might be particularly interested in this. Since their eyes have to last them longer :D

    7. Nobody is linking anything to anything.
     
  23. MikeD

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    (Epilepsy was not the point of this thread.
    It was "could I end up needing glasses from buying a DLP instead of an LCD, and why has nobody mentioned this before?")


    Hi Mannannan,

    "Thunder" made some relevant comments from an opticians point of view earlier in this thread.

    Also I would like to add that DLP has been with us for quite a few years now and so far there is no proof of permanent damage to peoples health.

    Rainbows are flashing light, so what is a TV and does it's picture not flash (refresh) 50 times every second?
    Has no one else ever heard of people suffering with aching eyes through watching TV, I know I certainly have but it hasn't stopped me or anyone else from watching TV.

    Regards, MikeD
     
  24. Mannannan

    Mannannan
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    Hi Mike,

    I saw Thunders comment's last week.
    Interesting, seems to say that the problems are due to the colour perception processing the brain does, and not the mechanical element to how our eyes work, which explains rainbows and possibly migrains and nausea, but doesn't have me convinced on eyestrain and visual fatigue.

    still though,

    I suppose your right, if I had a pound for everytime my mother said you'll get square eyes from watching too much telly I'd....................................probably already have a projector.


    Cheers
     

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