Backlight MAXIMUM for HDR? Having a laugh??

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
Greetings.

I have the NU8000 and understand HDR isn't great, but passable. So figured wth I will give it a shot anyway. (this is mainly for gaming)

I have read one needs the backlight set to MAXIMUM - SAY WHAT??

I have my backlight at around 11, maybe 12 for games. Watching movies or TV shows in the evening, often 3-8 in a dim room.

Yet for HDR I am advised to set backlight to 50!??? (maximum) which is basically blinding - my eyeballs are literally bleeding/melting so I set it at 20 which is about as much as I can take..

Can anyone give me a few tips or perhaps elaborate on all this a bit? Am I wasting my time with HDR unless I can withstand the full 50 backlight setting? TV is the Samsung NU8000 and backlight maximum is 50.

Many thanks.
 
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EndlessWaves

Distinguished Member
Normal TV uses a relative brightness gamma curve, the TV's backlight setting provides the reference value and then the brightness of all the shades in the picture are defined relative to that.

The HLG HDR format works the same way, but the HDR formats using the PQ gamma curve (HDR10, Dolby Vision etc.) use absolute brightness values. The content is telling your TV to output a specific brightness, rather than 12% of maximum.

As such the backlight function has to work differently when the TV is playing those HDR formats. I don't know the details, but I believe it often acts as a peak brightness cap rather than a scene average brightness override
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
Normal TV uses a relative brightness gamma curve, the TV's backlight setting provides the reference value and then the brightness of all the shades in the picture are defined relative to that.

The HLG HDR format works the same way, but the HDR formats using the PQ gamma curve (HDR10, Dolby Vision etc.) use absolute brightness values. The content is telling your TV to output a specific brightness, rather than 12% of maximum.

As such the backlight function has to work differently when the TV is playing those HDR formats. I don't know the details, but I believe it often acts as a peak brightness cap rather than a scene average brightness override

I appreciate the reply Sir although I don't feel much the wiser lol long story short if I have my backlight at 10-20 should I just turn off HDR? I sure as heck am notturning up the backlight more my eyes can't take it.
 

hughesie27

Active Member
I appreciate the reply Sir although I don't feel much the wiser lol long story short if I have my backlight at 10-20 should I just turn off HDR? I sure as heck am notturning up the backlight more my eyes can't take it.
I also can't answer your question but what I can say is that my experience of PS4 and PS5 gaming in HDR is that it makes the image much duller and worse than having it turned off.
It is a better story with PC HDR however I still find that just turning it off and watching with my brightness up at 50 is better.

I just turned my brightness down to the 11 to 20 range and that's really quite dull. The whole point of HDR is extremely bright "brights" and deep blacks.
 

Foster1984

Well-known Member
Currently, all consoles use HDR10 as their HDR format of choice, which means they use specific brightness values rather than relative ones.

E.G. the console will tell your TV that "X" pixel needs to be "Y" nits brights, rather than saying "X" pixel needs to be at 50% brightness.

Due to this, you need to have the backlight set to 50, otherwise when the console tells the TV to be at a brightness level above what you have the backlight set to (approx 120cd/m2 or 120 nits at backlight level 20) the TV will incorrectly map the elements of the image; resulting in odd looking dull and washed out colours.

E.G. the game tells the TV that the current scene needs to be at 600 nits, the TV will attempt to map all colours and tones to the 600 nits, which your TV wil not be able to display correctly as your brightness is set to 120 nits.

If the games you are playing look too bright when set to 50, you would be best looking for the HDR controls within the games menu and adjusting the HDR controls from within there, though it is worth noting that not all games offer this level of control. In Red Dead Redemption 2 for instance, you can set the maximum HDR brightness and set this more in line with your TV's capability, which produces a superb HDR picture.

If you still find 50 to be too bright, I would recommend turning off HDR. As having HDR turning on, but the backlight turned down would have more negative impact of image fidelity than just viewing the SDR image at whatever backlight level you find comfortable with.
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
Currently, all consoles use HDR10 as their HDR format of choice, which means they use specific brightness values rather than relative ones.

E.G. the console will tell your TV that "X" pixel needs to be "Y" nits brights, rather than saying "X" pixel needs to be at 50% brightness.

Due to this, you need to have the backlight set to 50, otherwise when the console tells the TV to be at a brightness level above what you have the backlight set to (approx 120cd/m2 or 120 nits at backlight level 20) the TV will incorrectly map the elements of the image; resulting in odd looking dull and washed out colours.

E.G. the game tells the TV that the current scene needs to be at 600 nits, the TV will attempt to map all colours and tones to the 600 nits, which your TV wil not be able to display correctly as your brightness is set to 120 nits.

If the games you are playing look too bright when set to 50, you would be best looking for the HDR controls within the games menu and adjusting the HDR controls from within there, though it is worth noting that not all games offer this level of control. In Red Dead Redemption 2 for instance, you can set the maximum HDR brightness and set this more in line with your TV's capability, which produces a superb HDR picture.

If you still find 50 to be too bright, I would recommend turning off HDR. As having HDR turning on, but the backlight turned down would have more negative impact of image fidelity than just viewing the SDR image at whatever backlight level you find comfortable with.

This is absolutely fantastic, got it, cheers!
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
I also can't answer your question but what I can say is that my experience of PS4 and PS5 gaming in HDR is that it makes the image much duller and worse than having it turned off.
It is a better story with PC HDR however I still find that just turning it off and watching with my brightness up at 50 is better.

I just turned my brightness down to the 11 to 20 range and that's really quite dull. The whole point of HDR is extremely bright "brights" and deep blacks.

You must wait at least 115 seconds before performing this action.

You must wait at least 44 seconds before performing this action.

What a waste of life. Really can't stand that sort of garbage. I almost just pissed off but wanted to thank this guy.

Many thanks I think I am on the right track now.
 

hughesie27

Active Member
You must wait at least 115 seconds before performing this action.

You must wait at least 44 seconds before performing this action.

What a waste of life. Really can't stand that sort of garbage. I almost just pissed off but wanted to thank this guy.

Many thanks I think I am on the right track now.
No problem bud. Good luck with it.
 

rccarguy

Active Member
It's the same for oled her, oled light at 100%. It's way too bright, and being LCD is much brighter than oled, you eyes must like like Aku from Samurai Jack
 

Indiana Jones

Moderator
Isn’t this how all TVs work with HDR? they should automatically set the backlight to max?
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Never had this issue on mine :confused:

I draw curtains when I watch movies, bias light is low.

I tried the built in HDR videos on the LG oled, it switches to 100% for.oled and contrast, I reduce it down.

I wouldn't want to be staring into a 1000 lumen led torch lol
 

Indiana Jones

Moderator
I also have curtains shut and bias lightening on low, when I watch HDR content it is automatically detected and the TV does what it needs to do and I have never once thought “oh my god it’s too bright” if anything it appears a little dark sometimes.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Default is 100 oled 100 contrast.

It hurts. It's absurd.
I have a 1500 nit TV which is almost twice as bright as most OLED TVs. When HDR comes on the TV sets the brightness and contrast to max. That's what it is supposed to do. So if you turn it down on an OLED TV which already has lower brightness than an LED you are significantly reducing its effectiveness.

Now when I'm watching non HDR content my brightness is set to a very low setting because otherwise I find the TV a little too bright. I know this sounds counter-intuitive :)
 

rccarguy

Active Member
I have a 1500 nit TV which is almost twice as bright as most OLED TVs. When HDR comes on the TV sets the brightness and contrast to max. That's what it is supposed to do. So if you turn it down on an OLED TV which already has lower brightness than an LED you are significantly reducing its effectiveness.

Now when I'm watching non HDR content my brightness is set to a very low setting because otherwise I find the TV a little too bright. I know this sounds counter-intuitive :)

Ah well. Somehow I don't think I'll be suffering from sleepless nights on that.

I dread to think the damage to people's eyes when TVs have 10000 lumens output...apparently we should stare at a sun...

Were supposed to listen to movies at reference, but that is too loud.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Ah well. Somehow I don't think I'll be suffering from sleepless nights on that.

I dread to think the damage to people's eyes when TVs have 10000 lumens output...apparently we should stare at a sun...

Were supposed to listen to movies at reference, but that is too loud.
I just checked again and the HDR image doesn't look too bright. I checked my TV settings and brightness is set to max, contrast seems to be untouched. I assume that the local dimming algorithm only allows the necessary amount of light for each part of a scene. After all you don't want 1500 nits at night or in space.

There is no equivalent for audio except to turn the volume down.
 
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SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
OK I just checked again IN GAME with recommended settings and some proper calibration.

It looks great, it's a little bright but it does look great. So, the main issue is this, and it really does GRIND my GOAT that HDTV software/firmware designers are SO lazy, or plain incapable, of INTELLIGENT design choices, for example, offer a dark mode???? It's 2021.... In HDR mode the menu is like staring directly at the sun! It's BLINDING. How complex is it to think of this obvious, BASIC feature. I get TV's have different menus however on the NU8000 it's WHITE. ALL BLINDING BRIGHT WHITE.

Samsung, I am a random guy on a forum who knows literally DICK - are you guys really either that lazy or stupid that you can't think of such obvious and basic features...

Anyway, so yeah, loving HDR in Battlefield and Battlefront. Just I dare not bring up the TV menu for ANYTHING without actual sunglasses.

There has been the implementation of 'night mode' (for example) with audio in games and AV Receivers and TV's and PC's and just about anything worth a turkey for YEARS and YEARS - COME ON SAMSUNG, let's bring on some common sense and realise little things make a difference to your FUTURE sales.
 

Foster1984

Well-known Member
OK I just checked again IN GAME with recommended settings and some proper calibration.

It looks great, it's a little bright but it does look great. So, the main issue is this, and it really does GRIND my GOAT that HDTV software/firmware designers are SO lazy, or plain incapable, of INTELLIGENT design choices, for example, offer a dark mode???? It's 2021.... In HDR mode the menu is like staring directly at the sun! It's BLINDING. How complex is it to think of this obvious, BASIC feature. I get TV's have different menus however on the NU8000 it's WHITE. ALL BLINDING BRIGHT WHITE.

Samsung, I am a random guy on a forum who knows literally DICK - are you guys really either that lazy or stupid that you can't think of such obvious and basic features...

Anyway, so yeah, loving HDR in Battlefield and Battlefront. Just I dare not bring up the TV menu for ANYTHING without actual sunglasses.

There has been the implementation of 'night mode' (for example) with audio in games and AV Receivers and TV's and PC's and just about anything worth a turkey for YEARS and YEARS - COME ON SAMSUNG, let's bring on some common sense and realise little things make a difference to your FUTURE sales.

You do know that feature exists, right?

Settings > General > High Contrast

You're welcome, and welcome to 2021!
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Yeah with oled and contrast at 100, menus are full brightness also.
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
You do know that feature exists, right?

Settings > General > High Contrast

You're welcome, and welcome to 2021!

No, I was under the impression High Contrast was for people with visibility issues, isn't it in the 'accessibility' section? I will go check!! However if I am wrong, then large goat I am.
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
You do know that feature exists, right?

Settings > General > High Contrast

You're welcome, and welcome to 2021!

EXCELLENT! Yes that works, thank you it's a marked improvement - I apologize to Samsung! Great job to them - I'd argue that isn't the exact intended purpose, THAT BEING SAID I won't get started on that lol I'm just very happy to have less blood and hot lava running from my eyes.
 

SlimyRiddler

Novice Member
You do know that feature exists, right?

Settings > General > High Contrast

You're welcome, and welcome to 2021!

As someone who seems to have a great deal of experience and knowledge, perhaps you could enlighten me. The NU8000 is a 4K TV yet on rtings it says 1440p/120 NATIVE and 4K/60....

May I ask what is this '[email protected] and how exactly does it differ from the 4K 60 NON-'native' (apart from the obvious..)

This is something I have been wondering about for a while. I generally use 4K/60 for my Series X as I don't mind the extra input lag - I'm not competitive and t's not a huge factor for me.
 

Foster1984

Well-known Member
As someone who seems to have a great deal of experience and knowledge, perhaps you could enlighten me. The NU8000 is a 4K TV yet on rtings it says 1440p/120 NATIVE and 4K/60....

May I ask what is this '[email protected] and how exactly does it differ from the 4K 60 NON-'native' (apart from the obvious..)

This is something I have been wondering about for a while. I generally use 4K/60 for my Series X as I don't mind the extra input lag - I'm not competitive and t's not a huge factor for me.

This is an issue with a what a TV accepts, versus what it can show, or indeed how it shows it. I'll try to explain it without getting too technical.

All TVs accept multiple types of signals, but they have to change these to match the native specifications of their panels. A good example of this is watching SD programs on the 4K panel, the TV doesn't show the program in only a tiny box in the middle of the screen, it shows it across the whole screen (asdpect ratios not withstanding); it does this because it interpolates the signal and generates the missing pixels via it's processing.

So with regards to the Rtings review, it specifies native support for 120Hz, because the NU8000 has a native 120Hz panel and shows all 120 frames; some TVs "support 120Hz" but don't actually show all 120 frames, as they skip frames in order to still accept the signal.

As for 60Hz signals, is is listed as "non-native" (or more accurately, just not listed as native) as the NU8000 has the 120Hz panel at 55". It still accepts 60Hz signals, but it repeats each frame; this means it shows them with the correct frame timings of a 60Hz signal. Same way 24p signals are just each frame repeated 5 times.

Obviously, the use of any motion controls (Auto Motion Plus, VRR, etc.) can mess with this; which is why it is advised to leave them off.
 
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