Question B&W M-1's L&R plus in ceiling SL/SR - which centre?

jimmyntee

Novice Member
Hey

Recently moved into a house with nice 65" 4K TV, two wall mounted B&W M-1's (M-1 Loudspeaker | Bowers & Wilkins), the SL/SR are ceiling mounted, but no centre speaker.

I've come from a house where I had a much larger but balanced centre+L+R, which is now not possible or has the WAF.

I also need a new receiver which will be Dolby Atmos when it comes. For future will get another set of in-ceiling speakers just in front of seating position for the remaining Atmos 5.1.2 setup.

The B&W is pretty ok but nothing like a 'large' speaker, but certainly ok for the space - 4 mtrs wide, seating 3mtrs from tv.

B&W and others recommend the M-1 horizontally as a centre, but given the centre is the main speaker for voice, I'm wondering if it will really cut it - 4" main speaker and it does not have much presence. Having the same speaker removes any balancing issues though.

Happy to consider another speaker which matches the M-1s, or if it's better to ditch them maybe replace all 3 (but would need to be WAF slimline - large speakers will not cut it).

I was even considering a passive soundbar and bi-wiring to L&R to soundbar (below tv) and current M-1s (on wall by top of tv) but I think that could cause other sound balancing issues.

Thoughts & recommendations?
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I don´t think B&W has any slimline centers, only 600 serie center channel. So you would have to mix some other brand or swap the whole LCR. There is of course on-wall speakers with slim design if your budget isn`t fixed. Taller and wider, but depth wise "slimmer". XTZ Spirit 2&6, Dali Oberon On-wall, MK Sound MP7 & MP950..

This guy has M1s black & silver for decent price as the new ones cost quite a lot. You could test one and if not happy i assume they would be easy to sell on classified section as LCR. If you buy one M1 and have space to keep it vertically upright same as your l/r, try it!
B&W Bowers and Wilkins M1 Speaker Black Surround Theater Home Cinema Theatre | eBay

You can`t have surround l/r placed on ceiling if you go Atmos route with in-ceiling speakers. Well of course you "can", but it`s not how it should be done with both in the ceiling. :confused: Just a reminder..
 

gibbsy

Moderator
If you can get a matching M1 centre then there are plenty of lifestyle speaker packages to choose from, like everything all depends on your budget. As Gasp has pointed out you will have to ditch the inceiling surrounds if going for an Atmos layout.

There has to be good separation between the Atmos layer and the base layer. The front should be at seated head height with the surrounds just slightly higher than that. If you have any other of the 'base' speakers in the ceiling then that separation is going to be lost and the Atmos effect fairly ruined.
 

jimmyntee

Novice Member
Thanks guys, appreciated - those MK look great.

I'm actually in Australia (but an expat).

For atmos - I know the rear in-ceiling are not great but they're actually set quite far back from the seating position. There isn't anywhere to put surrounds at ear level. You can also see that the front speakers are set a little high, as is the tv. I can move the speakers lower with flatter ones but the tv is fixed.

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<img src="https://jgamtw.bn.files.1drv.com/y4...jcqnfcvqYg?width=660&height=371&cropmode=none" width="660" height="371" />
s!AoJvDFe1rlbkiv4cHK5FGc9jXdjj9A

s!AoJvDFe1rlbkiv4ah-A_HuO9GnlXPA
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I can move the speakers lower with flatter ones but the tv is fixed.
s!AoJvDFe1rlbkiv4ah-A_HuO9GnlXPA

You should have goal of having front LCR tweeters close to seated ear height, so definitely much lower than in picture. The way you have M1s near ceiling now, they would actually work as front heights for Atmos, assuming you can angle them toward listener. Easiest would be to add three M1s more under the tv. As if you are going to go with Atmos anyway then maybe it would work better vs. with in-ceiling atmos speakers as the front height effect is slightly different and would not come from ceiling. Think about it couple times as you have to put big bucks for receiver and still won´t get optimal system.

The lower part of that cabinet where you have cards and slim keyboard would likely be where i put the front LCR speakers if the height is appropiate. Left and right speaker would be positioned as vertically upright and center channel you can lay horizontally. Visually not as nice vs. having the front three horizontally on same level, but you would need something like Jamo D500 to achieve that. Three matching speakers in white could blend nicely there. Not cheap, but good looking with compact size that should perform great for movies as they are designed for that just like MKs.
Jamo D500 Dual 5.5" THX 3-Way LCR Speaker (Each)

M&K Sound MP-7 On-wall LCR Speaker

MP 950 On-Wall Speaker

You didn´t mention do you already have subwoofer, if not you need one!
 

jimmyntee

Novice Member
Hi Gasp

Now you've given me more decision dilemma's! Those Jamo's also look sweet.... and would be perfect (just like the MK's) -both are $$$ in Australia though - $1950 for Jamos or $3K for MK950's....

The way you have M1s near ceiling now, they would actually work as front heights for Atmos, assuming you can angle them toward listener.

They already are and can be angled down further.

You didn´t mention do you already have subwoofer, if not you need one!.

I do have a sub - Velodyne CHT 10R but also needs replacing as the custom space for the sub under the cabinet (to the very left of the room) is.... argh 5mm too small.... So I do need a 10inch sub as well.... and this MK V10 on sale would fit lying on its side... @ $999 (£550) down from $1499 RRP MK V10 - (thoughts to match the MK7 or MK950s - my preference tbh). V 10 - Home Cinema Powered Subwoofer WHITE ONLY | MK SOUND - RIO Sound and Vision

For the receiver, I was actually looking at the Onkyo TX-NR585 (or 595 if it's released in US soon) - not premium but should be good for the space Onkyo TX-NR585: The best AV receiver for the money. I have a separate setup for stereo music.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hi Gasp

Now you've given me more decision dilemma's! Those Jamo's also look sweet.... and would be perfect (just like the MK's) -both are $$$ in Australia though - $1950 for Jamos or $3K for MK950's....



They already are and can be angled down further.



I do have a sub - Velodyne CHT 10R but also needs replacing as the custom space for the sub under the cabinet (to the very left of the room) is.... argh 5mm too small.... So I do need a 10inch sub as well.... and this MK V10 on sale would fit lying on its side... @ $999 (£550) down from $1499 RRP MK V10 - (thoughts to match the MK7 or MK950s - my preference tbh). V 10 - Home Cinema Powered Subwoofer WHITE ONLY | MK SOUND - RIO Sound and Vision

For the receiver, I was actually looking at the Onkyo TX-NR585 (or 595 if it's released in US soon) - not premium but should be good for the space Onkyo TX-NR585: The best AV receiver for the money. I have a separate setup for stereo music.

Just a few models that came to mind. You could do more research what is available locally if there is some super deals which we don´t know. And if you have option to go listen them before you buy anything, please do that!

You don´t need "matching" subwoofer. If your space is tight look for SVS SB1000 which is likely going to fit there and offers more performance with beefier amp and 12" driver (13" x 13" x 13")! Gloss black/white;
SVS SB1000 Sealed Subwoofer

You mentioned 7.1.2 setup earlier, which was probably typo as that would mean side surrounds and back surrounds which isn´t ideal for you. The receiver you linked can do 5.1.2, not 7.1.2 for which you would need 9.2 receiver like RZ-730 or Denon X4500H etc. I wouldn´t buy the newest model unless there is certain feature you need. This time of year is usually best time to buy receiver as there will be new model, so old one can be purchased lot cheaper. Remember the internals stays often same, but you will be paying for the few extra features you most likely won´t ever need.

Comparing AU prices it looks Onkyo and Yamaha are your best bets. The NR585 model can`t be found, but NR686 model is priced low and is better step up model. 696 has just came out, so you save 250$ going with the "old" model! I used MyShopping site which finds lowest price in Australia, you can do more search is there any better price available and also talk with the dealer. When you buy speakers and receiver same time, you should get some discount!
Onkyo TX-NR686 7.2 Atmos Network THX AV Receiver
 

jimmyntee

Novice Member
Hey

You mentioned 7.1.2 setup earlier, which was probably typo as that would mean side surrounds and back surrounds which isn´t ideal for you. The receiver you linked can do 5.1.2, not 7.1.2 for which you would need 9.2 receiver like RZ-730 or Denon X4500H etc. I wouldn´t buy the newest model unless there is certain feature you need. This time of year is usually best time to buy receiver as there will be new model, so old one can be purchased lot cheaper. Remember the internals stays often same, but you will be paying for the few extra features you most likely won´t ever need.

Yes it was a typo, it was meant to be 5.1.2. But point well made. My current (slightly going bonkers and long in the tooth) HK AVR-435 is a 7.1 and has 2 separate zones. I thought the NR585 and soon to be released NR595 (Onkyo announces budget Atmos AV receivers, AirPlay 2 support for select products) would cut it but the world of receivers for my needs, their model numbers and in some way being able to work out all their features is _not_ straightforward. I now think these are US only models.

I actually need a 9.2 because I also have 2 other speakers plumbed into the ceiling in the outdoor BBQ area with wires back to the receiver hub (it is Australia after all). Trying to work out which ones do both zones plus atmos without sacrificing 2 of the speakers needs a degree.

The one you mentioned the RZ-730 Onkyo model (it's predecessor RZ-720 1/2 RRP at $999 ONKYO TX-RZ720 THX HOME CINEMA RECEIVER) or the NR787, which I also suspect is a US model but amazon will ship it here for way less than $1000 (Onkyo TX-NR787 Least Expensive 9.2CH AV Receiver at under $700?!?).

Which brings me back to the speaker setup and the order in which I can eventually get to 5.1.4 (yup started with 5.1.2...), if the 5.1.2 sound does not work out...

Step 1 - purchase receiver + sub + 1 B&W for centre as a stop gap ($ concious) - 5.1.

Step 2 - purchase 3 matching LCR's, with 2 existing front B&W 'near-ceiling' as atmos pointing down plus two rear in-ceiling as normal surrounds (noting that atmos does not have 3.1.4 in its config, nor receivers have that).

Step 3 - Get 2 in-wall speakers to the left/right of sofa (a mtr+ of space on each side) at ear height - these become surrounds and the rear in-ceiling go to Atmos. I'll try to set them back as much as possible. Then we have the 5.1.4. If the B&W's don't cut it because of location, step-4 (omg) is to remove them (then sell 3 B&W's) and put 2 new in-ceiling atmos a mtr or so ahead of sofa.

So the receiver needs to eventually handle 5.1.4 + the 2 BBQ speakers. You'll probably tell me I need an 11.1 for that! But maybe a model will allow switching 2 of the rears to zone 2 as I doubt they will be needed at the same time.

My brain aches.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Hey



Yes it was a typo, it was meant to be 5.1.2. But point well made. My current (slightly going bonkers and long in the tooth) HK AVR-435 is a 7.1 and has 2 separate zones. I thought the NR585 and soon to be released NR595 (Onkyo announces budget Atmos AV receivers, AirPlay 2 support for select products) would cut it but the world of receivers for my needs, their model numbers and in some way being able to work out all their features is _not_ straightforward. I now think these are US only models.

I actually need a 9.2 because I also have 2 other speakers plumbed into the ceiling in the outdoor BBQ area with wires back to the receiver hub (it is Australia after all). Trying to work out which ones do both zones plus atmos without sacrificing 2 of the speakers needs a degree.

The one you mentioned the RZ-730 Onkyo model (it's predecessor RZ-720 1/2 RRP at $999 ONKYO TX-RZ720 THX HOME CINEMA RECEIVER) or the NR787, which I also suspect is a US model but amazon will ship it here for way less than $1000 (Onkyo TX-NR787 Least Expensive 9.2CH AV Receiver at under $700?!?).

Which brings me back to the speaker setup and the order in which I can eventually get to 5.1.4 (yup started with 5.1.2...), if the 5.1.2 sound does not work out...

Step 1 - purchase receiver + sub + 1 B&W for centre as a stop gap ($ concious) - 5.1.

Step 2 - purchase 3 matching LCR's, with 2 existing front B&W 'near-ceiling' as atmos pointing down plus two rear in-ceiling as normal surrounds (noting that atmos does not have 3.1.4 in its config, nor receivers have that).

Step 3 - Get 2 in-wall speakers to the left/right of sofa (a mtr+ of space on each side) at ear height - these become surrounds and the rear in-ceiling go to Atmos. I'll try to set them back as much as possible. Then we have the 5.1.4. If the B&W's don't cut it because of location, step-4 (omg) is to remove them (then sell 3 B&W's) and put 2 new in-ceiling atmos a mtr or so ahead of sofa.

So the receiver needs to eventually handle 5.1.4 + the 2 BBQ speakers. You'll probably tell me I need an 11.1 for that! But maybe a model will allow switching 2 of the rears to zone 2 as I doubt they will be needed at the same time.

My brain aches.

Haha, it`s minefield. Onkyo RZ-720 is 7.2 receiver and RZ-730 is 9.2 receiver. :laugh:

RZ-730 has Zone 2 speaker terminals and height 1 and height 2 for ceiling speakers, that means you can connect 5.1.4 system and zone 2 speakers, but you have to change the assignment from menu which you are using at the moment as it has 9 amps not 11. So you can´t use them at same time! Make sure you double check everything with Onkyo/dealer though. The receiver isn`t cheap, but likely cheaper than Denon X4400H/X4500H where you live.

I think you have to buy cheap 2ch amp with NR787 as it doesn´t have zone2 speaker terminals as an extra like 730 has. That would mean you could only run 5.1.2 system + zone 2 or using 5.1.4 and always swapping cables and do assignment at the menu. Would drive you crazy. Also keep in mind if you order from Amazon any warranty things could be tough and take long time to handle. If you buy locally it should be much easier. You just never know with these days about the receivers how long they will last. If there is some extra warranty thing option like in UK (5-6years), i would pay for that in a heart beat.

It`s a shame to put the HK for retirement. It was made in the good old days before the company was sold. Nearly 40lbs weighting! It outperformed competition in it´s price class! I had similar HK for 8years time, not same model though. Things have changed from those days sadly with zillion new features and some compromises in the areas where it counts..

Step 3 sounds spot on, then pair of in-ceiling speakers in front of couch like this:
5.1.4 Overhead Speaker Setup


"Step 3 - Get 2 in-wall speakers to the left/right of sofa (a mtr+ of space on each side) at ear height - these become surrounds and the rear in-ceiling go to Atmos. I'll try to set them back as much as possible. Then we have the 5.1.4. "

Does the SVS SB1000 fit there?
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Yup available space in the cabinet is 40cmx39cm*43cm.

Sub hole on left
- 20190605_164646.jpg
- 20190605_164725.jpg

And surround wall spaces on left and right 20190605_164654.jpg, 20190605_164700.jpg

I would be very skeptical of putting subwoofer inside cabinet. I know one dealer/installer has done it, but i think he has made sure the amp has breathing space ( heat) and i assume the bottom part is taken away as with your cabinet i would assume it can rattle the whole thing big time and that will be heard then. But if wife calls the shots you got to go with that..

Space looks fine for the surround in-wall speakers, seated ear height and side of listener / slightly behind. Don´t need to put crazy money in to them, but i wouldn´t buy the cheapest either. Also depending will you go with M1 system or more expensive...

It looks the right seat of couch would be against tv. I assume there will be other listeners aswell. The B&Ws are now placed horribly (!) and also mostly for the right side listener in mind. Very tricky to get the speakers in correct height, you have lot´s of space on the cabinet and you can push the speakers easily further apart to find the sweep spot for them. I wouldn`t put the speakers too narrow to the right side with tv either. You need to angle the (LCR) speakers to shoot more upwards i can imagine as that cabinet looks bit low.

The B&W M1 has been very popular lifestyle home cinema speakers. They haven´t changed them from 2012 as they still likely sell fine and sound great for the size. I would certainly bring them down on top of that cabinet and listen again. That alone will make noticeable difference. The table stand also let´s you angle them little bit upwards. If you do like them you could still think about just adding the third M1. It would be very cost effective solution. Sure the Jamo`s and MKs are better capable ones to be played real cinema levels, but also will cost big bucks and you should definitely listen them / others if you are willing to spend lot more bucks. M1 system could still be good stop gap before more expensive system. The center channel isn´t expensive and it will be easy to sell them as LCR when the time comes. Your call!
 
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jimmyntee

Novice Member
I would be very skeptical of putting subwoofer inside cabinet. I know one dealer/installer has done it, but i think he has made sure the amp has breathing space ( heat) and i assume the bottom part is taken away as with your cabinet i would assume it can rattle the whole thing big time and that will be heard then. But if wife calls the shots you got to go with that..

No chance of getting it outside the cabinet, but it's designed for a sub and deliberately has a grill to let air flow. Rattling will need to be tested and managed!!!
 

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