Question B&W CM10 S2

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Speakers' started by Kocur, Apr 19, 2016.

  1. Kocur

    Kocur
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Slovakia
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have a question about B&W CM10 S2 speaker. I bough this speaker 2 weeks ago with Rotel Ra 1570. I listen music in stereo in my living room (w 3.55m d 3.8m h 2.5m). Most often music is flac in 24 bit 96 kHz. My problem is the bass worth for sh*t. I try different position for speaker but no difference in bass line. Only if i hear special bass test music then is bass punch, deep, loud...perfect, but when i listening rock (or something else) bass line is like as from bookshelf speaker. What is the problem?

    Sorry for my english, im not naturaly speaker
     
  2. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    Loud bass is not necessarily good bass. If you want more bass impact, turn up the Bass Control on your amp.

    One does not spend the money one spends on the CM10 to get overblown droning bass. Their hallmark is clarity and detail.

    Also, let us know when you have 100 hours of play time on the speakers and how they sound then. With many speakers it takes some time for them to reach their final sound.

    Also, the room is relatively small for this sized speaker (about 11.5ft x 13ft). Do you have any acoustic treatments on the walls? If not, can you describe the room to us?

    Generally ultra-modern bare rooms are an acoustic nightmare. More cluttered, more softly furnished rooms with curtains and rugs tend to be acoustically better.

    In that small room, I would think some acoustic treatments would be a necessity, especially given that you have about £5000 in your system. To get your money's worth, you want the system to be in the best environment possible.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2016
  3. Kocur

    Kocur
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Slovakia
    Ratings:
    +0
    I now that bass not must be very loud. There must be balance between bass, middle, high, but in my opinion i have too small bass for this balance. Middle and high is very pure, clear, detail but the bass line is flat. In general i lisen mostly instrumental music and the speaker do very well job, i am absolutely satisfied. BUT i have sometime rock/dance time and that time is bass line too weak. I now speaker need some burn in and after 2 weaks is the sound much better as i first time listen them. I try different location in my livingroom for speaker but no diferent. I use them in little biger room (5.5m * 3.5m * 2.5m) but the sound was terrible (room was almost empty). Now i use subwoofer when i need bass. Is from my old HT set up. It is better than nothing :) And i thinking about buy a new one for music.

    My living room has not any acoustic treatments on wall. I post photo here for your better imagination.

    Livingroom

    thank you
     
  4. TB303

    TB303
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    656
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Location, Location...
    Ratings:
    +48
    Hi, I had these speakers for over a year (before I moved to electrostatics) and while it's a fantastic speaker, ultimately for decent bass you need a proper sub (I use a REL S/3) and it need to be properly calibrated/EQed...

    The speaker is fine it's the room that sucks the bass and you'd see it if you measure ten room response with something like REW...

    Good luck!
     
  5. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    Really, if you want a bit more bass emphasis, just turn up the bass control on the RA-1570.

    I don't think a Sub is the answer, as the CM10-S2 go too deep to integrate a Sub by the normally available means.

    However if you want invest considerable money, there are Sub like the higher end REL that have internal Bass Management for Both Front and Sub speakers.

    However, this bass management aspect must be inserted between the Pre-Amp and Power Amps. I think that might be possible with the Rotel RA-1570. But, we are talking a considerable amount for Subs that have this Front/Sub Bass Management feature.

    How much, I'm not sure. I'm not that familiar with these high end Sub, other than to know that they exist.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  6. D'@ve

    D'@ve
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2008
    Messages:
    400
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +68
    My room is relatively small too, 15' x 11' and I had bass issues with my 683s at first. I ended up sitting them directly on the floor (without the plinths or spikes, just the little plastic plugs underneath) and further back, 5 inches from a solid wall but not in corners. Since then, and even more after a month or so of running in, the deep bass improved greatly. I also use the tone controls as suggested above, on certain music types at lowish volumes and have decided against a subwoofer.

    If I were you, I'd try those kind of things, in front of a different wall if possible i.e. with no doorway/opening behind them. Even though some of those suggestions are a complete no-no with some audiophiles!
     
  7. brett7365

    brett7365
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    102
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Ratings:
    +8
    just to add my 2 cents, I am not sure if this helps or hinders but currently I use a pair of DM604 S3's for my stereo listening, I have a NAD M51 and did until saturday have a pair of Marantz MA6100's powering them, the bass has always been really good but lacked in the mid and high's, I have a Rotel RMB 1575 which is used for surround so I had time on my hands and wired it up to my stereo system, bass fell away quite a lot, mid's and highs were clearer but the RMB 1575 lacked sound stage I assume this is a Class D thing, but I can't say for sure.

    Any way my Dad has moved in with me recently and decided he wanted to buy a new amp for the stereo system, so we went to Superfi in Leeds as it was the closest place that had good power amps to listen to, We went up there with the thought of listening to the Rotel RB 1582 on B&W 683's thinking that was as close as we'll get to the 604 S3's, well we put on time from Dark side of the moon, after the first few seconds after the bells finished ringing I got up to see if the gold links were in place, there was no bass at all, I was so underwhelmed, but they were connected. So I asked them to bring in the CM9's, again sounded better but at the level we were playing it the 604 s3's made my listening room shake but were not boomy, the CM9's just didnt have anything compared, but mid's and highs were a joy to behold. We decided that as Superfi have there money back guaruntee we would take a chance on the rotel and if it was no good take it back.

    Got it home wired it up and bass was there but not like the marantz had, though the mid's and high's were a clear step up as was the general sound stage, so I decided as the rotel had bi-wiring posts, I would bi-wire it to the 604's, this made a huge difference, the bass was tight clean but loads of power, the sound stage was massive, the mid's and high's were amazing.

    My conclusion, B&W speakers require power to make them perform, they also benefit from being bi-wired why I don't know, i up until then had never heard a benefit from bi-wiring any of my previous speakers, I also believe that 120 watts per channel is not enough for CM10's, it can't be if 125 watts was not enough for the 200 watt rated 604's, I think the CM10's are rated at 350 watts so it might be worth (if you can afford it) looking at a RB 1582 or a RB 1590 power amp. This is just my personal opinion from my personal experience.
     
  8. fxd35hd2006

    fxd35hd2006
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Nevada
    Ratings:
    +4
    I have B&W's CM10 S1's. I think the only difference is the driver screws are visible on the S1's and not the S2's, but I'm driving them biamped with a Denon AVR-4810CI, and I can tell you that mine pound out the bass about as well as any speaker I've ever owned.

    I also have a pair of DM604 S3's that the CM10 S1's replaced, and I power those in my shop with a Denon AVR-2809CI, and sometimes I wonder if the older DM's don't sound better than the new CM's. Both are outstanding in the clarity department, as they both sound very ethereal and open, but I think I can drive the DM's harder than the CM's. Don't know if that has anything to do with the DM's being built in England and the CM's being built in China. I'd like to think not since I'd believe that B&W should be there making sure build quality meets their standards.

    As far as biwire and biamp, that's a huge debate, but I don't think you gain anything by biwiring a speaker. On the other hand you do by biamping. I used to biwire back before receivers started giving you the option of biamping, but the reason I bought the Denon AVR-4810CI was because it's one of the very few home theater receivers that gives you the option to "free asign" the amps to any speaker you want, but even then it's limited. I was able to biamp my front L/R/C speakers, center being a B&W's Centre 2 S2.

    I signed up just so I could respond to the initial post saying your CM10's didn't have any bass. That kind of baffled me since my S1 CM's pound. I guess my only advice would be biamp them, not biwire, and also say that B&W's love power, 150 watts or more is really going to wake them up.

    Good luck, and I'll bookmark this website and check back. I'm interested in what others say.
     
  9. Jodel

    Jodel
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +37
    I have the CM10 S2 and I can't say I've found them wanting in bass response. I do agree that they need a fair bit of power to get them going. I use mine with a Rotel RB 1582 MkII which supposedly gives 200 watts per channel. This can easily deliver high enough (detached house) SPL's for me, but I think the speakers could take more still. I sometimes use a sub-woofer with mine, but generally only when playing at lower volume levels, just to 'fill out' the overall sound. At higher volumes, the CM 10's seem to work very well - to my ears at least.

    I haven't tried either biwiring or biamping but I tend to think that a better outcome would be achieved by going the biamp route. I have tried biwiring a smaller system and I couldn't discern any significant difference in the sound.
     
  10. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    I will add one additional point, though it seems a stretch.

    Make ABSOLUTE SURE BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT that the speakers are wired correctly. That in every case the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). Nothing will suck the life out of a speaker like one of them being wired wrong.

    Typically the life get sucked out of the Midrange, but this can vary depending on the room size, room acoustics, and listening distance.

    Even the best of us have made this mistake. It pays to double and triple check.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  11. fxd35hd2006

    fxd35hd2006
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Nevada
    Ratings:
    +4
    I can't imagine any audiophile/vidophile doing that, but, BlueWizard, you are absolutely correct, and that was a good suggestion. DC current most definitely does have a polarity that needs to be adhered to.
     
  12. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    Except we are dealing with AC Voltage/Current.

    If you wire BOTH speakers backwards, it is the same as wiring them normally.

    The problem occurs when ONE speaker is wired backwards or out of phase with the other speaker. In this case, when one pushes, the other pulls, and within reasonable limits they cancel each other out. This is most prominent at shared frequencies. That is, sounds that are centered on the two channels. This phase cancellation will cause drop outs or weak sound in certain frequency areas.

    Since in a lot of music the bass is even in both channels, bass frequencies can seem weak. Though vocals are also often centered, and they can seem weak.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  13. fxd35hd2006

    fxd35hd2006
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Nevada
    Ratings:
    +4
    No, that is not correct. The current coming out of a receiver or amplifier on the speaker output terminals is very much, in fact, DC, as in "direct current." AC has no "polarity," as it changes direction of flow, as in "alternating current," at a rate of 60 times per second, as in 60Hz.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  14. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    This is a distraction, but - NO - Audio is alternating current, it swings both positive and negative.

    Speaker terminals are marked Red and Black or (+) and (-) because one is the signal source, and the other is the common ground, But internally a vast majority of amps have (+) and (-) voltage power supplies. A 100w/ch Amp will typically have about a ±45v power supply.

    A (+) voltage causes the speaker cone to move forward, and a (-) Voltage cause it to move backwards. No voltage cause the cone to remain in its neutral positions.

    And relative to my comment about polarity and speakers, the speaker can be wired (+) to (+) or (+) to (-), as long as both speaker are wired the same.

    But the polarity of BOTH speaker must be consistent. If the Right speaker is wired (+) to (+) and the Left speaker is wired (+) to (-) they will be mechanically as well as electrically OUT OF PHASE. That will cause the cancellation of sound at frequencies that are common to both speakers.

    This is the same principle that cause peaks and nulls in a room from new on-coming sound waves colliding with rebounding sound waves. When the peaks are in phase, the sound is amplified. When the peaks are 180° out of phase, the sound is cancelled.

    Here is an illustration of how Phase interference effects sound -

    How Acoustical Panels Improve Sound |...


    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  15. fxd35hd2006

    fxd35hd2006
    Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Nevada
    Ratings:
    +4
    After much investigating and reading, I see you are correct, in that the audio output at the speaker terminals is AC. It just goes to show, you're never too old to learn something new.

    I found your other demonstration informative as well, although having a degree in electrical engineering from the early 90's, and working part time for a Master Electrician for years, being in the Air Force for 8 years working avionics on fighter jets, and retiring from Harley Davidson as a Master Tech, I did know well enough to hook up my speakers red to red and black to black... :smashin:

    Sorry for hijacking the thread.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  16. Jodel

    Jodel
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    109
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +37
    Just an observation, but isn't it refreshing to have two adults (fxd35hd2006 / BlueWizard) exchanging views and reaching a conclusion without resorting to the abuse so common on many internet forums (fora?).
     
  17. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    I know this too and I have been dabbling in Audio for 40 years, and also have a degree in Electronics Engineering Technology, and despite trying very hard not to, I have still wired my speaker wrong. I hear it right away and correct it, but it is a mistake anyone can make.

    Which is why, if you have a problem, especially a problem where something seems to be lacking, you have to check very very very closely to be sure you got it right.

    It really will suck the life out of your speakers if one is wired backwards.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  18. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2007
    Messages:
    21,340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,958
    This is a distraction, but it illustrates nicely how no matter how hard to try, you can still get it wrong.

    To make it visually easier to identify the wires, I mark the Positive wires with RED Electrical Tape. So, trying very hard to make sure I got it right, I marked both end with Red Tape, put Red and Black Banana Plugs on, and had Red amp terminal to the Red Banana terminal connected to the Red marked wire which went to the other end of the Red marked wire, which went to another Red Banana Plug, which went to the Red Speaker terminal.

    Still got it wrong. I put the Red Tape on the wrong wire.

    No matter how hard you try not to make this mistake, you can still make it. At a casual glance, from beginning to end, Red went to Red, at a glance everything looked good. But to see the small ridge marking the wire, I had to look VERY VERY VERY closely to see my mistake.

    This is especially true if something seems lacking in the sound - if the bass is weak, if the midrange seems to have dropped out. These are all signs of phase and wiring problems.

    So, absolutely worth verifying through CLOSE observation, that the speakers are BOTH wired correctly.

    Just an anecdote to indicate that even the best of us, no matter how hard we try, can still get it wrong.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
  19. Weetabix

    Weetabix
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    227
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Littlehampton, West Sussex
    Ratings:
    +37
    Hi Kocur,

    Great choice of speaker, however, the CM10's have a 300w power capacity.

    There's a certain phrase "selecting the right tool for the job".

    I agree with Steve's comment, the room they're placed-in is not large and doesn't necessarily warrant such high capacity 3-way loudspeakers, I reckon the 2-way CM6's would have done a better job.

    I'll refer to the attachment below to describe what could be occurring:[​IMG]

    If those bass drivers are hardly flinching, they're not moving the air, thus lower levels of bass produced - the CM10's are designed for large rooms and high replay levels, hence more powerful amplification, driven harder, they sound better.

    Hope this assists in identifying the issue.

    regards
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2016
  20. Lensman5d

    Lensman5d
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2016
    Messages:
    83
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    carmarthenshire
    Ratings:
    +25
    Would you pair cm10 with 683 , considering the 'max' power rating. I want to drive cm10 fir stereo duties then use as a whole for HT. Or is this mad? I plan to road test them next week so will report back on bass discoveries.
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice