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AVR 300 pro logicII base levels

Discussion in 'Arcam Owners' Forum' started by ttree sound, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. ttree sound

    ttree sound
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    Whilst listening to tv broadcast the bass levels seem to be a bit thin when pro logicII movie is selected, being the correct option for watching films etc.

    I have managed to get a good level of bass if stereo is selected by changing the subwoofer setting within the AVR menu to "large and sub" but this does not seem to have any effect when using the pro logicII movie option even though the source is still in stereo as is most tv transmissions.

    I know there is an option of trimming the bass/treble levels of each channel but I dont want to have re set before watching a film on dvd.

    If I select the pro logicII music option the bass levels return presumably because more emphasis is placed on the front two stereo speakers.

    Any ideas --- anyone?
     
  2. Crustyloafer

    Crustyloafer
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    Not helpful I know, but please learn to spell properly before posting. In this day and age with spell checks and other utilities abound there is really no excuse.

    Your reference to the word "Base" should actually read "Bass".
     
  3. ttree sound

    ttree sound
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    Crustyloafer, I take great offence to your reply. I thought that posting on fourms had no resemblance to taking an English exam. Your comments will surely put some prospective posters off posting on this forum, fearing that a forum member might attempt to ridicule the poster due to a spelling error. Spelling errors in my book, come way down the list of life's priorities.

    The HI-FI/ AV fraternaty forum posters, which I had the utmost respect for, has dropped a peg or two when viewed from my perspective, if your reply has any bearing on impression forming.

    I had to contend with Holby City at max volume levels on the tv which my wife was watching whilst posting. I could hardly think straight let alone worry about spelling.

    The saying - "practice what you preach" comes to mind especially if you refer to a post of yours dated 6-2-2005, 7.54pm. I always thought that forseeable was spelt with an E between the R and the S, or should an A be added to make an appropriate anagram - perhaps not, but then I don't profess to being an expert!
     
  4. Crustyloafer

    Crustyloafer
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    I apologise, it's just one of those things that rubs me up the wrong way. I shouldn't have commented as it was not really relevant. I hope I have not adversely affected your opinion of the forum posters on here. I do try to be quite helpful at least 90% of my time on here.

    With regards to your problem, I'm not sure there is any easy solution. I too experience the same thing with PLII Movie Processing but have come to the conclusion that it is just the way the processing works, possibly also due to there being less bass content in the TV broadcasts in the first place. Have you tried using some of the other formats such as DTS NEO 6 which is supposed to be DTS' equivalent to PLII?

    One thing I vaguely recall improving the situation slightly was when I upgraded the DSP version on the AVR300 from version 1.10 to 1.12. It is quite likely that you already have this version on your unit already but if not then I would recommend doing this as it improved, to my ears anyway, quite a number of aspects to the sound. One of my larger threads I created a little while ago has now been turned into a Sticky and will always be found at the top of the Arcam forum page. This thread covers which version of DSP Software and Firmware are the most up to date for each machine and how you go about getting this done.

    I hope this is of some help to you.
     
  5. Sparky66

    Sparky66
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    I thought I should post here to offer my support to Crustyloafer. I guess we all have our bad days , but all the same , this forum would not be the same without him offering his advise and help on many occasions. This Arcam Forum is better than most I have ever seen and to lose forum posters such as Crustyloafer or Andy_Dutton (Arcam), would be a crushing blow to the support of this forum !!
     
  6. Crespotav

    Crespotav
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    If you are watching a movie with only 5.1 soundtrack or select 5.1, there is no choice of DTS Neo. This option is available only in two channel modes.

    On the other hand, you can select PLIIx Music and after doing that go to the first Screen of the Main Menu and adjust Bass there. Such adjustment persists even if you go to Standby and "Power on again". If you switch off via the front button it is reset. I've used it in
    Musical movies I liked it.

    PLIIx Movie is designed for theatres and Dolby does not like it to be changed. By the way there is an interview in Home Theater Magazine May 2005 pag.42-45 available at www.homeathermag.com where the problem is addressed, albeit briefly.

    You will learn also that "Pro Logic II and MLP compression were developed outside our company"
     
  7. ttree sound

    ttree sound
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    Thanks for your replies. It seems that there is no way around this other than to configure my graphic equalizer to boost the low frequencies, which is what I used to use with a previous system to good effect.
     
  8. GarySargent

    GarySargent
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    I've noticed that the sub level doesn't seem to have any effect in the ProLogicII modes. You can change the sub level with the sub button on the remote, but it seems to have no effect!

    I wonder if this is a bug? I have firmware 3.16 and DSP 1.12.

    By the way - a spell checker wouldn't pick up "base" as being incorrect as that is a valid word, just the wrong one :)
     
  9. Crespotav

    Crespotav
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    Although the Dolby Digital, DTS and MPEG encoders limit the total bass level to +15dB, the resulting bass energy can still be incredibly demanding for even the very best systems – and equally important – may be disastrous for other, less capable, speakers.

    Maybe ARCAM implemented further limitation to this as does the Meridian 861. To protect the equipment, the speakers and, above all, your hearing...

    Increasing the bass above certainly levels, such as the one's used in discos, may cause irreversible deterioration of your hearing capabilities.
     
  10. ttree sound

    ttree sound
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    Crespotav,

    The bass levels from DD,DTS, PLII music,DTS NEO music and even plain stereo are all at an acceptable level, its just that PLII and DTS NEO movie mode seems to reduce the bass levels, even though the stereo source that I'm using is usually digital or analogue tv, achieves good bass levels from the other modes. I would not expect bass levels from any mode to match either DD OR DTS from a dvd which can be quite thunderous at times but an increase from the PLII and DTS NEO would provide better immersion whilst watching a film. I do like my bass to be powerful, tight and clean which I assure you does not resemble "disco bass"
     
  11. Stevesky

    Stevesky
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    The perception of bass loss is common with PLII(x) Movie on broadcast material as heavy MPEG audio compression ($ky, freeview etc) can introduce various phase variations that annoy the Prologic decoder steering logic. PLII Music (depending on centre width setting) does not steer audio so heavily so the bass loss perception is reduced.

    RE: Neo:6 on 5.1 material - traditionally this was true, however from late 2003 the THX reference mode charts renamed the ES-Matrix to +Neo:6 for non flagged ES material. Hence in a latest implementation it's possible to do, for example Dolby Digital 5.1+Neo:6, which will generate SBL, SBR from SL, SR using the DTS ES matrix. At least it makes it consistent with the way Dolby PLIIx was going with 5.1 material.

    Every year the world of processing mode combinations get more complex!
     
  12. GarySargent

    GarySargent
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    Sometimes I WANT disco bass - like right now - volume on +94db! And yes it is FAR too loud! :D

    But in PLII modes the sub I have attached is doing NOTHING. It has no sound coming out at all. Works fine in Dolby Digital or DTS.

    Why isn't the sub on in PLII (and NEO) modes?

    (The sub is also on in the stereo effect modes)
     
  13. ANDY_DUTTON

    ANDY_DUTTON
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    The sub is not on because all your speakers are set to large and if we sent base to the sub as well as to your speakers there would be to much base in the room. If you want base to come from the subwoofer all the time you need to set some speakers to small. The front speakers will have the most noticable effect.

    We cannot add extra base to the system by redirecting base to the sub as well as large speakers, it would be a Dolby and DTS (NEo) decoding failure and our product would not be certified by these companies (This is not to say that there arn't some processors that do this but they shouldn't.)

    In stereo we can do what we like and since many customers like to have more base we have allowed this option, it is still not really correct.

    In 5.1 channel material the sub has the LFE channel going to it even if all speakers are small so there is still a signal on this output.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  14. GarySargent

    GarySargent
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    Surely that is the point of the levels settings though to control things like the bass?

    Couldn't it at least be an option in the menu to allow signals to go to the sub when you have large speakers? (defaulting to not do that to pass the Dolby/DTS certification).

    There are times when I want HiFi sound, but there are other times I'd like to have a load of bass even if that is not what the original recording intended! Surely the choice should be mine?
     
  15. Crespotav

    Crespotav
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    To satisfy your desires, Sir, I suggest you purchase a Carver!! . There is plenty of them on Ebay. Some of these Beasts (Models M1 and M5) have 1000W power and can shake the tables on a small disco: Since the disco is on the basement of a 19th Century building, the walls stay put... Surprisingly it is quite melodic on old vocals like Nat King Cole...on vinyl!!
     
  16. ttree sound

    ttree sound
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    I thought I would let you know how I have improved the PLII movie mode. The clue was in Andy Dutton's post - large/small speaker settings!

    My front speakers were all set to large, the rears to small. Any low bass going to the front stereo pair would automatically be produced by the sub as its connected to both the hi level via the speaker terminals on the amp and the RCA LFE which routes the .1 LFE on a DD/DTS source. So PL11 music mode placed more emphasis on the front stereo pair which have good low frequency capabilities in their own right plus because I have my sub integrated with them produced good bass effects.

    PLII movie mode however seems to place more emphasis on the front centre channel which because I had set to large was unsuccessfully attempting to produce the very low frequencies during any action scenes on the tv. By simply changing the front centre size to small, all bass frequencies bellow 80hz (amps crossover setting) are now being redirected to the sub when in PLII Movie mode via the RCA LFE. Whilst it may not compete with full DD/DTS 5.1, it now gets very close indeed, and I am very happy with the sound it now produces.
     

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