AVR 300, any efforts to add a P90 to get better stereo?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Knusse, Aug 16, 2006.

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  1. Knusse

    Knusse
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    Hi, I'm thinking about adding a P90 to my AVR300 to get better stereo.
    Will it work, will acktually give me more power and greater sound?

    And secondly, I have Dynaudio loudspeaker, thay can not be bi-wired.
    Will I still be able to gain any more power or greater sound?

    Any comments or anyone that have this setup?

    :lease:

    My setup:
    AVR300
    DV79
    Front Dynaudio Audience 82
    Rear Dynadio Audience 122
    Center Dynaudio Audience 122C
     
  2. proux

    proux
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    I posted a similar question a few days ago and didn't get much response. Find posts by dwette who is using older amps with the AVR300 and Dynaudio, and says they are great.
     
  3. proux

    proux
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    Then there is of course the question of whether adding a separate dedicated CD player will give you better (though not louder!) stereo
     
  4. Knusse

    Knusse
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    Well, I'm hoping that someone can say something about this. The P90 delivers more VA but lower W.
     
  5. Knusse

    Knusse
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    Hi, I'll try again, not anyone who has tried ,or considered, to connect a P90 to AVR 300?

    Anyone who knows something about the questions under?

    1. How much does the P90 deliver with 2 channels in 4 ohm?
    In the specifications it says 165W in ONE channel, but how much in TWO?

    2. How much VA does the AVR 300 deliver when using 2 channels? And why cant we use the power from 6. and 7. speaker outlet?

    I belive I've heard that the amplifier in P90 is better than the AVR 300's.

    Thanks!
     
  6. barnythebear

    barnythebear
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    I'm not sure what you are trying to do but adding a power amp to the AVR300 can help. However the best way is to use the preouts and connect them to the P90 and then biamp your speakers. P90 for high and the 300 for the bass. This worked very well for me with a P35/3 but you have speakers which cannot be biamped so there would be no gain.
     
  7. Knusse

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    Hi Barny! I was hoping that the P90 was a better and more powerfull amp than the avr300. By doing this I'll get better stereo. agree?
     
  8. mlilliman

    mlilliman
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    Hi Knusse,

    Looks like you've not had much joy with responses to your question, so I'll try and help. Apologies if I sound like I'm teaching you to suck eggs at any stage!

    Every integrated amp (including the AVR300), has a pre-amplifier section and a power amplifier section. In simple terms, the pre-amplifier stage has to handle pretty much any analogue audio signal it can reasonably expect to be fed, then normalise this and hand it over to the power amplifier to drive the speakers.

    The pre-amp section of the AVR300 is a compromised choice for pure stereo replay as there is a lot of video circuitry in there (it is an AV amp after all!), and will have other features such as the ability to adjust tone control - all of which affects the music signal. However, I would expect the P90 to have higher quality components than the equivalent in the AVR300, including a better spec toroidal transformer (even if it delivers ~30W less per channnel on paper).

    So to summarise, while the P90 will provide more grip over your speakers and deliver a perceived improvement in bass, the pre-amp will not quite have the same quality and cannot be improved without replacing the AVR300 completely. As such, if your speakers have two sets of binding posts, I think you may get the best results if you use the P90 to bi-amp your speakers. I'd let the power amp section in the AVR300 drive the treble, and assign the better quality P90 to provide the muscle.

    Alternatively, if the AVR300 lets you bi-amp the fronts speakers using the rear channels then save your money and don't buy a P90 at all!
     
  9. PenguinHiFi

    PenguinHiFi
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    Hi Knusse,

    Your question isn't really difficult to answer technically.
    You can, of course, use the pre-amp section of the AVR300 to connect the AVR300 to a power amplifier and feed your speakers with the power amp instead of the amplifiers that are built into the AVR 300.

    Of course, the answer to the question that is to know whether or not this will improve the sound quality is difficult. But, here's what I think about it (just a personal thought).

    Arcam has a reputation that is well deserved for it's "electronics" : thjat is sources + pre-amp section. Andthis remains true when applied to integrated amplifiers, but isn't really considered as a masterpiece maker for power amplifiers.

    What does this mean ? Two things :
    - 1°) the pre-amp section of the AVR300 is a really good one…*so you can keep it !
    - 2°) the amplifiers that are built into the AVR300 are probably not too good coming from a manufacturer that isn't considered really good at making amps

    So what does this implies ?
    - 1°) there is no question if the sound quality can be improvement by by-passing the amplifier section included in the AVR300
    - 2°) it is more than likely that the P90 will offer you improvement, but a hardly noticeable one

    So what is my advice :
    - 1°) buy a good power amplifier from a hi-fi specialist that has a good reputation at it
    - 2°) connect it to the outpout of the pre-amp section of the AVR300
    - 3°) this will offer huge improvement, even without bi-amping or bi-wiring

    Any product to recommend ?
    Well, if you look at some websites, you can find an amplifier that is a real masterpice (powerful AND really musical, at least to my ears), and that is the Linn AV5105. This marries really good to Arcam pre-amps. It can be found for about 650 dollars plus shipping and, for that price, beats the P90 no questions asked.
    My only concern would be the speakers, as I know the brand but never had a listen to DynAudio speakers.

    Hope this helped.

    Regards.

    FRED
     
  10. mlilliman

    mlilliman
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    With all respect Penguin, I think that's nonsense! The pre-amp section in the AVR300 will be the limiting factor in a stereo setup given the additional processing features in this section of an AV amplifier. It makes no sense to then buy a considerably better power amplifier of a different manufacturer in an attempt to recover the musical signal.

    I wasn't aware that Arcam's reputation for producing power amplifier is so poor. Out of interest, on what feedback is this based?
     
  11. Knusse

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    mliliman and PenguinHiFi, thanks for answers! This only confirm what I suspected, theres no easy way to gain more power with my speakers using the Diva-series. I'm still VERY interested in your discussion, please continue.
     
  12. proux

    proux
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    Knusse you should definitely look for the posts by Dwette as I suggested at the start of the thread who has done what you want to do and had good results
     
  13. Knusse

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    Yes, you are right, I'll send him a note.
     
  14. PenguinHiFi

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    mLilliman,

    Well, we might have both different experiences here. But here is mine.

    I have an Arcam AVR100. This is an integrated multichannel amplifier. And it's an old one, far far older than the AVR300 : less powerful and with a pre-amp section considered far poorer than the one included in the AVR300.
    Hope we can both agree on that.

    The AVR100 was a real good integrated amplifier at driving easy loudspeakers like my Linn Keilidhs. But recently I bought much more difficult loudspeakers : the Linn KABERS( bought them second hand because I love their sound !). The front Kabers are active and therefore tri-amplified. The rear Kabers (yes I bought two pairs of them !) are passive and therefore single-amped. The Linn centrik is bi-amplified. The whole system requires 10 channels (6 for front Kabers ; 2 for rear Kabers and 2 for center speaker).

    To try to get a decent sound on the front speaker, I tried different things :
    - 3 Linn LK100
    - 1 Arcam P1000
    - 2 Linn AV5125
    - 3 Linn AV5105

    While the sound I got with the three Linn LK100 was good, I expected the sound that will pour from the Arcam P1000 would be significantly better as the P1000 is far more powerful. What a disappointment ! It simply added : nothing ! I was thinking that the AVR100 preamp could have been a bottleneck that would explain this lack of improvement. So I went to a local Arcam retailer and he gave me an Arcam AVP700 for 3 days. Connected it : nothing better neither from the Linn LK100 nor from the P1000. Well, things got better, sure… but a really light improvement. Definitely not worth the 2150€ to me. So I brought back the AVP700 to my retailer.
    Then I ordered the 2 Linn AV5125. Not cheap amps, but they were convenient : 10 channels in only 2 boxes. And small boxes that could crawl under my stereo furniture. With the AVR100 used as a prea-amp ? Well, it was simply like going from a dark night in a dark forest to a nice and sunny summer day in Arizona ! (I'd rather not say what the experience with the 3AV5105 has been, even with the poor little AVR100 used as a pre-amp !).

    Next thing will be to listen to the AVP700, but with the 2 Linn AV5125 amps… I'll probably hear a significant improvement there !

    So, from my own experience, I can tell that the pre-amp of the AVR100 might be a limiting factor, that's for sure. But from my own self experience, I can tell that it will be limiting only with really high-end amplifiers. And I guess there's no reason to believe that the pre-amp section of the AVR300 is not as good as the pre-amp section of the AVR100…

    Now to the second question : based on what feedback are Arcam Amps not with a good reputation ? Just a listen to them. And especially talking to the guy who represents Arcam here. Saying, himself, that he doesn't find Arcam amps really good (and after heraing the P1000, I must agree ! It's a good amp…*but not a good price/musicality ratio !). And here, in France, it is really easy to find a retailer who carries the Arcam pre-amps, integrated and sources. But really difficult (merely impossible) to find one carrying the power-amps. And when they're asked, answer is still the same : "Not good enough for the money after some serious listening sessions".

    Maybe we're just that good old damn frogs… but that's on what my answer is based :)

    Regards.

    FRED
     
  15. cjohnson6

    cjohnson6
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    Agree... AVR300 preamp is the limiting factor......I've tried it with my MC2500 and CD36... sounds cr*p....
     

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