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Avia - too much colour after calibration?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Steve Zodiac, Jan 2, 2005.

  1. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Can anyone tell me why it is, that after calibrating with Avia, the colours are highly over saturated?

    I've found that after careful calibration with slight adjustment of the colour decoding for colour balance, the colour (saturation) level then has to be turned down by around 25%. It's not simply that skin tones look too red, everything is over coloured and unnatural on all DVD's.

    I have also tried using Avia with my CRT TV, again resulting with having to turn the colour down by a similar amount.

    The other tests on Avia seem good, but I can't see the point in setting the colour level, then having to turn it down considerably to watch a DVD with lifelike colour.

    It this because Avia is NTSC? If so, does that mean that the colour decoding tests (and possibly others) are not accurate for PAL systems? Having said that, I have found that even Region 1 discs exhibit the same problem.

    Any ideas?

    Thanks

    Steve.
     
  2. brackenlamb

    brackenlamb
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    im waiting for my pal avia from play.com
    hopefully this ntsc disc is why you are having problems
     
  3. tamthetim

    tamthetim
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    I bought the DVE Pal disc for calibration.......................seems to have worked pretty well.

    But I noted that people were buying both NTSC discs and PAL.............I only have region 2 discs....................if you are using both but have only set it for one.....this could be your problem.

    Cheers, Tam
     
  4. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Thanks for the replies.

    I have found that both Region 1 and Region 2 DVD's look too high in colour if the screen is calibrated with Avia and left on that colour setting. When the colour is then reduced by 25% or so, the colour is then great with either Region 1 or 2.

    I have no complaints about the colours on my screen once it is re-adjusted by eye, it's just that I'd like to know why the colour level looks incorrect to me after calibration with Avia.

    I think that if this colour problem was down to NTSC/PAL, then people would have to buy just the one region or they would have colour problems on the other.
     
  5. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    I've just checked and my copy is of Avia is NTSC. However, I've just used a friends copy of DVE which is PAL and I get exactly the same result! The colour needs turning down after calibration.

    For colour decoding both Avia and DVE gave me the same settings for R, G and B, but too much colour overall for viewing DVD's (Region 1 or 2).
     
  6. Dillz

    Dillz
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    Which is best DVE or AVIA ?

    BlahDVD are selling DVE for £12.99 is that good?

    Cheers

    :)
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK, The colour patterns on AVIA and DVE allow you to adjust the colour decoder setting so it is performing as accurately as possible. The colour saturation of colour you see on the screen is affected by greyscale and brightness/contrast as well though.

    When you set the colour using avia use the blue colour bars. Then....very important bit....use the red colour bars and filter to fine tune if the colour is obviously not correct. If your colour decoder in your display is correct the green adn red bars should look correct when the blue does but I suspect that will not be the case in your system. It is unlikely that there are any RED and Green hue and saturation controls available in your display so do as I suggest and see how you get on. I'd also then check your brightness setting and also if you have a colour temperature setting set it to Mid, or D65 or 6500K is you have the option.

    Gordon
     
  8. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Thanks Gordon for the guidance.

    I had set the colours as you have suggested, following adjustment of the contrast and brightness.

    Blue first with the colour control, then the Hue control was adjusted. This adjustment is available for both the NTSC Avia disc and the PAL DVE disc. In the colour decoder, the red was turned down slightly from +33 to +28 and the green increased from +33 to +35 (from default settings +33). These settings were verified by switching on R, G and B independently in the decoder menu and checked against the colour tests in Avia and DVE. Both discs gave the same results and the colour filters gave the same results as switching the colours on independently.

    The colour temperature that I have had the screen (Hitachi 55PMA550E) set on has been Normal. The other options are Warm, Black & White and Cool. I'm not sure if one of these is the equivalent of Mid, D65 or 6500K. I seem to recall something mentioned in DVE about this - I'll have a look.
     
  9. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Just found on an Hitachi pdf for this screen that 6500K is the "Warm" setting. Normal was 9300K!

    I'll try again.
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Steve: Send me the PDF. CONVERGENTAV@BTINTERNET.COM

    I think the RGB settings you are adjustinig with colour bars are NOT for colour...they are for greyscale. This could be where the issue is. They are adjusted usinig prcise measuring equipment and a different patterns.

    Gordon
     
  11. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Gordon an e-mail is on its way.

    I did try re-calibrating the colours last night using the warm (6500k) setting but found that whites and greys had a green tinge as though the blue had been reduced. The intensity of whites was also well down. To me the normal setting on the screen for colour temperature seems to give the most accurate whites and greys. After setting colour via Avia or DVE on either the warm or normal settings on the screen, the colour has to be reduced from around +3 to around -10 to stop some colours glowing and to make flesh tones look realistic. I realise that this colour situation is a very personal thing, but would have expected that faces shouldn't look like they have a had a heavy stint under the sun!
     
  12. alan8477

    alan8477
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    I also found Avia too colourful on both my Viera and Toshiba projector.
     
  13. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Having tried the two, I would say that both will give the same results - they have on mine!:mad:
    Seriously though, each one gave the same settings for contrast, brightness, sharpness and colour, even though the DVE copy is PAL and the Avia copy is NTSC.

    Following an e-mail from Gordon, it would seem that the colour decoder settings menu on my screen is not the place to adjust the colour decoder colour test bars on the Avia/DVE test discs. He says these adjustments are for fine tuning the greyscale. His recommendation was to return the colour decoder settings on my screen to default, then adjust the colour first with the blue filter, adjust the hue and then if necessary reduce the colour control on the screen to bring the red into line on the colour decoder colour bar tests on Avia/DVE.

    I thought that having carefully followed both Avia and DVE, that I had made the correct adjustments of the colour decoder settings on my screen but obviously not!

    Thanks again Gordon for your advice.
     
  14. Dillz

    Dillz
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    Thanks for the feedback Steve.
     
  15. Chaos Star

    Chaos Star
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    Avia is a NTSC only DVD, so sets up your system to play R1 DVDs the whiteness level is the the main differnce in PAL and NTSC, but as the setup of the viewing parameters are inter corelated the whole setup will be out using a NTSC calibration disk to set up R2 PAL DVDs.

    There is no way that setting up the your TV or Projector should look the same using a PAL format and a NTSC format calibraton DVD.

    You say you have a CRT TV and another display device remember that the you dont use the same part of the test patterns for CRT and Non CRT Devices!

    Also someone posted they are ordering a PAL Avia from play.com as far as I now there is no PAL Avia only NTSC, so make sure you have got the correct type of DVD so not to be dissapointed.
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Sitting at airport and had to log on to post this.

    : What Steve thinks are colour decoder adjusments are nothing to do with colour decoder. They are to do with colour of white/black/grey. They cannot be used for colour decoder as they are nothing to do with it (presuming I am correct of course). So if folk reading have such adjustments DO NOT try to use them to fix colour errors as you may find, as Steve has, that it just makes things worse. If you have RGBCMY adjustments in your display these too are best left alone unless you understand how they work in your display and have measuring device to see what you are doing. Chances are you are just going to limit the range of colours your display can show if you adjust these.

    Cheers,

    Gordon

    NTSC and PAL discs. There should be no difference in white level between PAL and NTSC. In fact, if you have your DVD player set to output NTSC with a 0ire level for black the brightness setting should be the same as well. The way colour is encoded is different in PAL and NTSC and the spec for the voltage black should be in North American NTSC land is different. Any differences you find are more than likely be due to differences in hidden service settings loaded up for 50 and 60 Hz signals in your display. I use AVIA and both NTSC and PAL DVE as well as the original NTSC Video Essentials.....don;t ask why.....

    Gordon
     
  17. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Gordon, I tried resetting the “Colour Decoding” settings back to default as you suggested and fine tuned the colour setting using the red (after setting blue and hue) which resulted in a reduction of the colour level, now -3 as opposed to +3 after previously adjusting R & G in colour decoding. This resulted in the colour level still being too high for a natural appearance of colour.

    When I originally adjusted (very slightly) the red and green in the “Colour Decoding” menu, the colour level was too high straight after Avia but looked great after turning the colour level down until it looked natural. On a DVD image the overall colour balance didn’t look noticeably any different than before adjusting the red and green, the only difference was that after adjustment of the R & G colours, the colour decoding test bars in Avia/DVE matched exactly the coloured filters. As I said, the adjustments I made were quite small and they certainly didn’t make the situation worse.

    Under the Colour Decoding menu (the one that I had adjusted), there are the options to select R, G & B switched on together or individually. There are also settings to adjust Red, Green, Colour and Hue. This sounded exactly like what was required and mentioned on Avia and DVE.

    Other menus for colour settings on this screen are:

    Colour Temperature - B&W, Warm, Normal and Cool options.

    Colour Temperature Adjust - Adjustments for:- Amplitude R, G & B, Cut Off R, G & B.

    Colour Management – Adjustments for:- Magenta, Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan & Blue.

    As I have previous said, it’s not that I can’t get really accurate looking colours, I can. It’s simply that I would like to know why when using Avia/DVE the colours glow if the colour control is left alone after calibration.

    If anyone has doubts, I have had a fairly recent eyesight and colour recognition test. :)
     
  18. X3ELS

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    GORDON posting from X3ELS PC.

    Steve: Sorry about this. It does look like you do have the necessary adjustments. Our emails have confused me. So to confirm. For others reading. If you have RGB colour temp or RGBCMY adjustments don;t touch them. If you have the RGB colour and hue adjsutments then dpo blue first followed by green and red. This will give you the correct settings. If you feel that the colour is tooo saturated after this then turn down overalll colour till you like it.

    Gordon
     
  19. Steve Zodiac

    Steve Zodiac
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    Thanks Gordon for confirming this colour adjustment situation. However, it does bring me back to my original question!

    Why is it that after colour calibration with Avia or DVE, the colour level then has to be turned down considerably? I know a friend of mine and alan8477 has had similar results. I’m sure there must be others out there who have found the same.

    I would have thought that the whole idea of Avia/DVE calibration is that the colour would then be accurate and natural looking for the vast majority of DVD’s without the need for further adjustment.

    Maybe it's as simple as what looks over saturated to one person may look accurate and natural looking to another. Having said that, I feel I still can't accept perception of colour is that different though!
     

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