AVForums Podcast: Episode 235 - IFA 2018 Special

Discussion in 'Podcasts' started by Phil Hinton, Sep 3, 2018.

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    1. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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      00:01:37 - LG Stand
      00:06:10 - Panasonic Stand
      00:07:02 - Samsung 8K TV Demo
      00:18:47 - Sony Master Series Demo
      00:28:56 - Philips 803/903 OLED TV Demo
      00:37:48 - Sony 4K Projectors
      00:42:50 - JVC 4K Projectors
      00:53:34 - TCL Stand
      00:58:01 - Hisense Stand
      00:59:31 - I'm broken... IFA wrap up
      01:02:59 - Goodbyes

      Presented by Phil Hinton with Steve Withers

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      Subscription link: AVForums Podcast


      Time: 01:03:39 | File Size: 92mb | Direct Link
       
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    2. invisiblekid

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      Great hearing you guys again.

      Yeah if you want a DV Panasonic, wait till next year! I can see Panny's and Phillips' point of view for not including Dv. Price for one thing, but it does mean dumping all your picture processing (PR BS or not). But each have very different ideas.

      I feel with Panasonic their very firm belief their "hands off" approach means you still get what the director intended and nothing more.

      Phillips is we know best and that's to give you a top picture with some added zing.

      Phillips I dont think get into bed with DV and didnt they have something to do with technicolour or some another HDR method?

      Panasonic will cave, but they REALLY don't want to. Rightly or wrongly DV box ticking is having an effect. Quite amazing how Dolby have peaked with Dolby Surround, Dolby Digital on TV and DVD. Had their asses handed to them on Blu Ray shaped platter and now being the accessible, affordable must have THX of today and ironically making the DTS name about as relevant as THX.

      Good to see JVC adding true 4K, though again, slightly debatable as to why. I'm sure they were very happy with their pixel shift and the reviews generally confirmed that. Again I'm sure this was to get a feature-on-the-box in order not to protect potential sale losses.

      I can see TCL's reasons for going slow. Just look at other cheap brands in the past who simply have got it wrong with basic calibration/colour correction features. They test the waters, hopefully listen to the feedback and get it right the next time. The pessimist in me says the more they sell, the less they will listen to Phil or Steve lol. But a cheap TV that punches above it's weight is not hard to do with their production facilities and finances and will sell well once a good review sticker gets slapped on the display unit.

      Good to hear a solid hour of hardware talk, but will welcome the random crap we'll get next week with welcome arms!
       
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    3. LicensedTaximan

      LicensedTaximan
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      Cripes.... all TV technical hardcore stuff. No childish giggling, innuendos, Count Wither's "put downs" or fridges. Interesting poddy guys but I will look forward to next weeks dis-organised mayhem. :) :D
       
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    4. Matson

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      One thing I'm curious about is when you guys were talking about the new Samsung 8K sets. Steve mentioned that the Q900R has the same number of zones as the Q9FN.. did Samsung actually confirm this to you guys as most other reports say Samsung didn't comment on the number of zones but that there using a more denser backlight. Is that what you ment by Micro dimming?
       
    5. boabis

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      Good show guys, appreciate the effort to get the pod out while still recovering from the trip.

      Good to see that manufacturers are thinking of users when it comes to designing sets, and not just saying “we know best”. We’re edging into the mature stage of 4K and HDR as they become standard across most ranges.

      Of course that means the next big thing, so 8K naturally. Bit silly to push that when there is no content, no method of delivery and not a single standard agreed. Look forward to a review of an 8K set with literally no way to view native content.
       
    6. cobhc2008

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      Made me smile hearing Phil talk about Danny at Philips. I have the same opinion of him, he knows his stuff but there's always too much talked about in the way of messing with the image rather than tweaks to recreate the directors intent.
       
    7. steviedr

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      Great Podcast guys, appreciate the time taken.


      Can we get a comparison between the new N7 v your older JVC workhorse once Steve's new toy arrives please?


      I'd love if broadcasters started to create 1080 HDR (but now we have 4k HDR, assuming that ship has sailed), SDR>HDR is bad. We can all apply fake HDR currently and it doesn't look right. I'll admit, I do turn it on now and then with the kids animations to add a bit of pop, but would never use it for film. In fairness, Philips implementation may be a lot better than what LG offered on the 2017's sets.


      3-5 years for Micro Led to arrive, so 6-8 years until its affordable then, gives Oled plenty of time to improve/come down in price, but this means the tone curves will continue for some time.

      Will DV rule the HDR world by then or will 10+ finally make its mark...

      From what has been said (or how I have interpreted it), Panasonic ruled DV out when creating their Hcx chip in 2016 and due to the length of the chipset cycle we have not seen DV yet, with Craig Cunningham saying never say never, you'd have to think it will be supported (hardware wise) next year rather than go for Sony's approach? If they did, I'd certainly be back onboard when considering next tv in a few years.
       
      Last edited: Sep 5, 2018
    8. Spacecat

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      thanks for an informative podcast , this TV development lark never stops does it these days

      one thing that personally I think is over rated is the 'Directors intention' that's all when and good and in a cinema where you have no choice but, when I am watching at home I like the option to watch it in anyway I please :D
       
    9. gadget man

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      Good podcast but give the brexit a rest, not the reason for price hikes.
       
    10. Phil Hinton

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      Well if the content is made a set of standards that says what something should look like, and it is supposed to look that way, why would you not want to see it in the best way possible?

      Would you go to see the Mona Lisa and take some felt tips to colour it in the way you think it should be? :)

      Obviously, you can do what you like in your own home with your own TV and viewing (wearing whatever costume you like ;)), but the TV must be able to reproduce the image as intended in at least one preset. There has to be a control point.
       
    11. Spacecat

      Spacecat

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      well you are taking it a bit to an extreme, but for example if a director has put a bit too much graininess for my liking and I have the opportunity to reduce it with some post processing process then why not?

      Bit like sound sometimes the cinema is too loud do I have to listen to it at full volume to get what the director intended?

      I've seen the mona lisa and to be honest she could do with some cheering up, how about an Andy Warhol print of it might be interesting and show it in a different but interesting way?
       
    12. Phil Hinton

      Phil Hinton
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      Because you are changing the intent of how the story is being told. If you want to see it as it is supposed to be viewed and with the points the director is trying to get across, the emotion they are trying to impart, you are destroying it. Trainspotting will always be grainy as it was shot to look gritty and dirty with cheap film stock. All you will do with DNR is make everything look smooth and plasticine like and remove any fine detail that exists. You remove the gritty feeling the director is trying to get across. You are destroying a bit of art. That's not extreme, that is fact.
      You can change it all you like, but it is not as intended and you lose the cinematic image, emotion and feel, that people have spent hundreds of hours creating.
      Change the colour settings in the Matrix and you lose the subtle difference between the real world and the Matrix. Colour, shadow, composition are all important tools in how to subconsciously emote feelings in the audience. Change those and you lose that.
      You can do it all you like, it is your choice, but don't say something is overrated when its intentions are genuinely for the true representation of a piece of content. We all have the choice, but one is definitely the right way to do it and the other is your personal preference which means nothing to anyone but you, and you genuinely miss the point...

      You've just made my point for me. Why don't we colour old black and white films, re-edit films to our taste, de-grain the classics as it annoys you?

      You have free choice and I personally couldn't care less what people do with their own TVs and it's set up, but you can't call something overrated when it's intent is to actually try and reproduce the emotion, feeling, artistic intention of someone telling a story and how they have chosen to tell it. For many, it is very important, if it isn't for you then fine, but don't put something down for trying to be accurate and true to the source. There are good reasons why standards exist and AVF will always champion the right way of doing things.
       
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    13. Rob20

      Rob20
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      I've had my 50" 1080p Pioneer Plasma for 10 years and have only just upgraded to UHD! A 65" LG OLED C8. There's great 4k content on Netflix, some on Amazon and dissapointingly little on SKY Q. It's going to be a while before SKY even has dedicated 4K channels seeing the lack of content. I want to see HLG, HDR and HFR before I see 8K. By that time I'll be ready for a new tv; probably in another 10 years!

      To be honest, I'm happy to wait 10 years for 8K: Minimum screen size 75", max 100". Unless the screen is the front speaker then 120". For a start the price, performance/tech would have to be right. When I bought my 50" Kuro at £2,250 the combination of performance/price just seemed right and I never had any regrets. For at least 7 years I didn't even look at buying a new tv. Never cared about 3D and curved was always a pointless gimmick. OLED piqued my interest again, but it's only this year that, for me, the price/perfomamce felt right again and I paid £2,300 for 65" LGC8; just £50 more than I paid for the plasma and 15" extra screen size to boot; then factor i 10 years inflation and Brexit! I feel vindicated waiting.
       
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      Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
    14. Rob20

      Rob20
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      As tvs get larger and cheaper, how long will it be before large screen tvs replace projectors? Especially when PJS can sell for £25,000! I can imagine a time when modular screens such as micro LED are cheaper and better and the market for PJS are just for those wanting screen sizes that most wouldn't have wall space for, say 120" to 300".
       
    15. kurtz

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      Nice to hear all the new developments summarised in one place along with your opinions of the demonstrations and insights about where the companies are in their market cycle: some are maturing in 4K and moving on to 8K while others are still climbing up the 4K hill.
       
    16. Toon Army

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      Interesting podcast gents and hopefully you will report on future shows. Definitely feel like a lads weekend in Berlin going to the show etc. Looking forward to next week's mayhem with the rest of the team.
       
    17. Steve Withers

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      There are a few examples of 1080p HDR, Star Trek Discovery on Netflix for example, so there's no reason why broadcasters couldn't. It just seems that HDR has become synonymous with 4K these days.
       
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    18. Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
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      Samsung told me that the Q900 has the same number of zones as the Q9FN, although they wouldn't confirm what that number was. However, from testing the Q9FN, I believe the number of zones is 488. The Micro Dimming relates to how the local dimming algorithm is applied, creating the impression that there are a lot more than 488 zones (potentially the equivalent of thousands).
       
    19. Matson

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      Thanks Steve it would be interesting to know how that works. One other thing I was curious about is do you know if there using QDCF on these models? It was mentioned at CES in an interview with Nanosys that they will be using QDCF in TV's shown at IFA so it would only make sense that its these. Plus you mentioned the viewing angles look very good for a VA panel so that would go together with them using the new QDCF.
       
    20. beechy06

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      I take it Ed didn’t go to IFA? Or have you just left him in the white goods section :rotfl:
       
    21. Garioch

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      Great podcast (lots to take in) and excellent suggestion about visiting IFA. Would love to go.

      Congratulations Steve on your JVC preorder and although it wasn't discussed congratulations Phil on your green mustang preorder. She is a beauty and roll on March.
       
    22. Soundizer

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      Top Podcast, you guys are on form. Straight down to business - good call.

      If Philips are so confident about the SDR to HDR Processing, perhaps they can justify it by asking a group of Directors to view their Created Movies on the TV. Better still, allow an independent organisation to calibrate the Settings and control th event.


      Interesting LG OLED’s also have a ‘HDR EFFECT’ Picture mode, but looks bad to me compared to ISF Calibrated modes.
       
    23. Soundizer

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      The 1 Picture Processing feature I do really like is Sony’s Smooth Graduation feature which I miss on my 2017 LG OLED. I hope Sony has retained or advanced it further on the new Master TV’s.

      I know a similar feature was added to 2018 LG OLED, but to my eyes it is not as effective.
       
    24. Soundizer

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      A potential solution to deliver 8k content via streaming is to implement Variable Refresh Rates to allow the Streaming App to handle more data if your wifi Supports it. Netflix doesn’t do this currently as pushes everything down a 15.26mbps tunnel regardless of your wifi speed.

      So perhaps a 8k Service will require 25mbps or more - just guessing.

      I like the quality of the Stream on Apple TV 4K via iTUNES which has shown by developers to clock over 38mbps. A very solid picture.
       
    25. linnasak

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      What’s the data rate on 4K Blu-ray? Won’t 8k need 4x the rates x the increase in frame rate if any?

      250mbs not uncommon if you can get fibre to the premises connection(fttp) this has even been suggested to happen up here (Skye) in coming years!

      Kevin
       
    26. linnasak

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      Bought arrival for $2 following comments on podcast, just ok on my Sony projector(vw760), even on the LG tv had to black out and view, what’s it like on modern TVs in ambient light conditions?

      Kevin
       
    27. invisiblekid

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      UHD Blu Rau tops out at around 100Mbps

      I think the new Bad Boys runs to 94Mpbs and that's partly due to it being 1.85:1 so if your wanting full screen 8K under current compression techniques then yeah it'll need some pretty huge bitrates.

      Glad Skye is getting fttp. Hope you all get it by the time I'm up there next year!
       
    28. linnasak

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      Wouldn’t bet on fttp by next year but many areas now have fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) then copper to the premises, hence speed dependent on how close you are. We get 70mbs so not limited currently!

      Kevin
       
    29. GhostWorld

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      Great podcast guys.

      I think it's too early for the 8K ship to set sail, I'm having a hard enough time convincing my friends that 4K is worth the upgrade so all this 8K talk is confusing the marketplace.

      Saying that I wouldn't say no to having that 88 inch LG OLED sat in my cinema room!
       

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