AVForums Podcast: 18th June 2014

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
This week we discuss:

00:00:57 SVS SB-2000 Subwoofer Review
00:05:20 How does a sealed subwoofer differ from one that is ported?
00:17:57 Ask the Idiots - Why don’t we measure for BT2020 in our reviews?
00:22:45 Upcoming Reviews
00:24:49 E3 Round-up
00:27:50 Are video games inherently sexist?
00:32:54 Don’t forget this month’s Games Podcast
00:34:17 What’s on at the cinema Steve? - Oculus
00:39:23 Blu-ray releases this week - Her, Blazing Saddles, Thunderbolt & Lightfoot and Stalingrad
00:44:22 Ed’s turn to mention the ’N’ word - that’s Netflix of course
00:46:29 What are the 20 best Blu-rays for picture and sound?
00:58:52 Goodbyes

Presented by Phil Hinton with Steve Withers, Mark Botwright, Simon Crust and Ed Selley.


If you are having problems with subscription services and Apps, please deselect and then re-subscribe to the podcast feed, thanks.


Time: 01:00:31 | File Size: 100mb | Direct Link
 

sarumbear

Novice Member
Thank you for your response to my Tweet, although I'm very much surprised by your answers. You seem to live in a parallel univers to the rest of the engineering world. Please allow me to explain.

Firstly, BT.2020 (also known as Rec.2020 mainly in US) is a standard published by ITU, which stands for International Telecommunication Union who is the United Nations specialized agency for information and communication technologies.
The ITU-R Recommendations constitute a set of international technical standards developed by the Radiocommunication Sector (formerly CCIR) of the ITU. They are the result of studies undertaken by Radiocommunication Study Groups on the use of a vast range of wireless services...

The ITU-R Recommendations are approved by ITU Member States. Their implementation is not mandatory; however, as they are developed by experts from administrations, operators, the industry and other organizations dealing with radiocommunication matters from all over the world, they enjoy a high reputation and are implemented worldwide.
ITU-R Recommendations
BT.2020 is the only standard that defines UHDTV. It was published on August 23, 2012, almost two years ago. There is no other standard either published or in draft about UHDTV!

Therefore, what you said at 18:40, "it is not part of the standard" is totally and utterly wrong.

Secondly, you seem to confuse BT.2020 as the standard for colour space only. It is not. Colour space is only part of the standard.
Rec.2020 defines various aspects of ultra high definition television (UHDTV) such as display resolution, frame rate, chroma subsampling, bit depth, and color space.

Rec. 2020 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you want to read the entire standard, here is the link.

All this leaves you in a position to argue that ITU made a mistake, and part of the standard "is not feasable", your words. Are you telling us that you are above ITU?

Thirdly, you seem to be misinformed about the BT.2020 colour space as not available in post-production tools. Almost all colour grading tools, including the free Davinci Resolve Lite supports BT.2020 colour space. I'm a film producer; I spend most of my life at post production houses in Soho and LA. I know what I'm talking about.

Finally, here is a monitor that displays full BT.2020 colour space, which makes your "not feasable" argument pretty moot. Don't you think?

Just because CEA defined an UHDTV to have a singel digital input that can display a 3180x2160 pixel image and the manufacturers jumped on that "oh so easy" bandwagon you don't have to help them to fool us by bringing to market subpar TVs. They had two years to produce devices that are to standard.

I can understand why the magazines can't talk about this almost sham but AVForum as well? As they say: et tu, Brute?
 

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
Just because a standard exists doesn't mean that it will be adopted by the industry.
We have seen that happen on many occasions.

The problem with Rec2020 is that it is a major challenge at this moment in time for manufacturers, producers and film makers. The other issue is content produced in the standard doesn't exist and there are no plans that we are aware of for it to exist. We have yet to see any consumer display get close to being acceptable with DCI spec, a spec that exists for film makers, studios and cinemas and in 2K/4K, and is being used, never mind BT2020.

You have heard our opinions and you have your own ideas based on reading what is out there. The simple answer is - nobody knows just what the final consumer standards for 4K will be at this moment in time and Rec2020 is just one document/standard/possible solution that exists.

If you are a regular listener you will know that we have been pushing for a standard with wider gamut, better frame rates when needed, better bit depth etc. But we also have to temper that with the real world of the consumer electronics business. Look how long it took us to convince manufacturers to add calibration controls...

Thanks for your question.
 

Ed Selley

AVF Reviewer
I can't help but think that in saying;

Secondly, you seem to confuse BT.2020 as the standard for colour space only. It is not.
Before linking us to a monitor that supports the colour space of BT.2020 but nothing else- and isn't an UHD resolution display- that you demonstrate quite effectively that whatever the rest of the standard is, it isn't being taken up by anyone, anywhere.
 

vism

Well-known Member
There's another thing with rec2020 that is being missed. You do not need double the bit depth to store double the number of colours, that's not how digital storage works.
1 extra bit doubles the number of colours.
Rec2020 will fit in 9 bits with similar banding issues as rec709 in 8 bit, with 10 bits it will not suffer any banding (apart from anything added by compression).
And as Main 10 will be the profile used by 4k broadcasting, you can expect rec2020 to come along sooner rather than later.

The other thing you keep saying is that no TV can produce it. So what?
When the broadcasts begin, you will start to see TVs that can produce 2020 (or 70, 80, 90% of it).
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
The original question was why don't we mention BT2020 in our reviews and my answer was, and is, that since it isn't currently used by anyone and no domestic display can currently get anywhere near it, what's the point? Personally I'd be happy if we got 10-bits and DCI but I'll bet you ten bucks and my right nut even that doesn't happen.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
When the broadcasts begin, you will start to see TVs that can produce 2020 (or 70, 80, 90% of it).
Just curious Andy, but what makes you say that?

As things stand, most of the panel manufacturers are touting UHD LED/LCD displays that can acheive 98% of NTSC. We don't yet know if OLED tech can get there - and they are currently a long way off - and I doubt TriLuminous will ever have the capability. Maybe we're looking at a full Quantum Dot TV (or something else) before it's in the realms of possibility and I wouldn't be holding my breath on that. I'm sure things will improve but Rec 2020 in the foreseeable future? I'm dubious.
 

vism

Well-known Member
My view is that the tech will come along when there is a need for it.
We didn't have full HD screens until HD Blu-ray/broadcasting came along and for a while, there were debates as to whether you could get that many pixels on a screen.
It'll be the same with 2020.

Look at it this way. If we had 2020 now, most screens would clip the extra colours and continue to give us 709. Some, OLEDs for example, would give more but still clip but at a higher boundary. Future screens will gradually push the limit higher and higher until we reach full 2020.

Could you guys clarify something for me?
I thought the EBU had accepted rec2020, DVB-S2 and HEVC as the tech for 4k broadcasting in Europe, is that incorrect?

EDIT: Getting my standards mixed up. The UHD standard uses rec2020 but rec2020 allows the use of the YCbCr colourspace as well the full rec2020 one. My question should have been has the EBU accepted the UHD standard for 4k broadcasting in Europe?
 
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sarumbear

Novice Member
The original question was why don't we mention BT2020 in our reviews and my answer was, and is, that since it isn't currently used by anyone and no domestic display can currently get anywhere near it, what's the point?
Isn't your behaviour the same as many reviewers' reports on the first batch of HDTVs, which were not able to show HD pictures? That (in my mind) shoddy reporting put us in a position where as BBC had reported at the time (2005), "Of all the flat panel screens sold, just 1.3% in the UK are capable of getting high-definition."

The report ended with a statement from Phil Laven, then technical director for the EBU, which is what I'm championing and taking you to task to help the consumer: "We believe consumers buying expensive displays need to ensure their investment is worthwhile."

If you personally believe the colour gamut in BT.2020 is not achiavable say so in your review but make sure that viewers know the TV on test is not fully compliant with the current standard as it stands. Unfortunetly instead, on your articles you totally disregard this issue as if it doesn't exist.

Meanwhile, the fact that there are no TVs on the market that satisfies the standard fully is a news item. Why don't you use it? Isn't a header like this catchy enough for syndication? :)

None of the UHDTVs on the market are standard compliant
TV industry doesn't believe in a part of the current standard and disregard it
 
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Steve Withers

Reviewer
What standard?As far as I'm aware, there is no agreed standard for UHD TV but once there is we will obviously test UHD TVs against that standard. At the moment, the agreed standard for domestic video distribution is Rec.709 and that's what we measure against.
 

vism

Well-known Member
While I don't agree with the tone of sarumbear's post, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start pointing out in the reviews that the current crop of UHD TVs won't be compliant with the UHD standard.
This assumes that the UHD standard has been accepted by the EBU and I'm not sure of that. Steve?
 

sarumbear

Novice Member
What standard?As far as I'm aware, there is no agreed standard for UHD TV.
Steve, I don't know how you define a standard, but I ask you these two simple questions:

  1. Isn't ITU the only body that is reponsible for everything telecommunications internationally and is accepted by every nation on the planet?
  2. Isn't BT.2020 is the only ITU standard that defines all aspects (not only colour space) of UHDTV?

If you answer yes to above I'm sure you also answered your question of "what standard" as well.

I fail to grab your stance. Unless an ITU standard is modified the published document is the only standard. BT.2020 has not been modified since the two years it was published. What does that tell you?
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
Andy there is currently no agreed set of standards for UHD TV, unless you know something I don't, in which case please send me a link. So far we've got HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and Netflix 4K and if a TV doesn't have any of these we point it out. It doesn't make any difference what the ITU say, what matters is what the broadcasters, manufacturers, BDA and video streaming services decide to adopt.
 

vism

Well-known Member
Actually, just been reading something on the DVB website and I'm sooooo HAPPY. The rec2020 standard is going to be modified to allow p100...yippee.

As far as standards are concerned, my understanding is (please correct me as I'm not 100% sure) that the UHD standard sets the rules and that is accepted by the ITU/EBU.
The DVB in conjunction the the EBU has then come up with UHD-1 phase 1 and 2 which use elements of the UHD standard.
UHD-1 phase 1 is 4k at p50, 10 bit with YCbCr.
UHD-1 phase 2 will add the rest along with HDR which hasn't been finalised yet.
 
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sarumbear

Novice Member
This assumes that the UHD standard has been accepted by the EBU and I'm not sure of that
You can be sure of that by reading EBU's own presentation made two years ago.

For general information, it is almost unheard of when an international body (like EBU) disregards or disagrees on an ITU standard. EBU delegates are part of the ITU group who defines the TV standards.
 

mikelj

Well-known Member
My view is that the tech will come along when there is a need for it.
We didn't have full HD screens until HD Blu-ray/broadcasting came along and for a while, there were debates as to whether you could get that many pixels on a screen.
It'll be the same with 2020.
Why? Was it the same with NTSC, PAL, Rec.709?
 

vism

Well-known Member
That was useful, cheers.

We may be getting ahead of ourselves though. There may be a standard from the ITU but the broadcasters have to agree that Europe will use HEVC, rec2020 and DVB-S2 to actually broadcast TV and Steve reckons that has not been agreed yet. I thought that it had but may be wrong.
 

vism

Well-known Member

mikelj

Well-known Member
Don't understand, what are you saying?
As Mark said, we currently have UHD LED/LCD displays that can acheive 98% of NTSC. NTSC and PAL have been around donkey's years are our current TV can't reproduce 100%of those colour gamuts, let alone Rec. 709, so why will it be any differrent with Rec. 2020?
 

vism

Well-known Member
98% is pretty close (and 709 isn't much bigger than 601 tbh) so I'm confused by Mark's comment. There are plenty of screens that have been reviewed where the guys have said they are bang on 709.
Also, there are one or two that are approaching DCI.

The fact that Panasonic having been flogging plasmas that allegedly do 98% of DCI points to the fact that the concept will sell.
 

vism

Well-known Member
Looks like Steve was right, we're close but nothing signed off yet.

Here's is a great BBC article that covers all of my major concerns about UHD and answer some questions.
Great news on p100 too.

Defining the Future of Television - Blog - BBC R&D
 

sarumbear

Novice Member
I can't help but think that in saying;

Before linking us to a monitor that supports the colour space of BT.2020 but nothing else- and isn't an UHD resolution display- that you demonstrate quite effectively that whatever the rest of the standard is, it isn't being taken up by anyone, anywhere.
We have yet to see any consumer display get close to being acceptable with DCI spec, a spec that exists for film makers, studios and cinemas and in 2K/4K, and is being used, never mind BT2020.
What I was trying to demonstrate that BT.2020 colour space is doable unlike what is being said by the editor above by showing him a monitor which is available to consumers.

My example was on colour space only, which is the subject of this thread.
 

vism

Well-known Member

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