AVForums Podcast: 13th June 2016

Phil Hinton

Editor
Staff member
In this Podcast we interview Stephen Auld from Dolby UK and find out all about Dolby Vision.

00:01:12 – What is Dolby Vision?
00:03:46 – How does Dolby Vision differ from HDR 10?
00:06:18 – Is there a format war between Dolby Vision and HDR 10?
00:10:45 – What happens if someone watches Dolby Vision on a TV with HDR 10?
00:13:18 – Why does Dolby Vision specify 10,000 nits of peak brightness?
00:17:55 – What peak brightness and colour space was used for current Dolby Vision content?
00:22:20 – How is Dolby Vision an end-to-end solution?
00:26:08 – What are the differences between Dolby Vision at the cinema and in the home?
00:29:48 – How does dynamic meta data work?
00:33:05 – What is intelligent display mapping?
00:34:45 – Does all this make calibrators redundant?
00:37:12 – Where can consumers find Dolby Vision content?
00:40:40 – Where will things go from here?
00:43:25 – Can an OLED TV really deliver a full Dolby Vision experience?
00:45:50 – What are Dolby’s plans for Ultra HD Blu-ray?

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Time: 00:49:00 | File Size: 82mb | Direct Link
 

zubeir

Well-known Member
Really interesting podcast. It's seems like it is the best end to end hdr solution which will provide the most consistent output. The only problem is only LG in the UK have adopted it for the moment..
 

simonblue

Distinguished Member
Should i be worried ?,i have invested into HR-10 both TV & player Panasonic,when i asked a lot of ? about Dolby Vision v HR-10,the reply's from a lot of members here,who seem to no their stuff was that it didn't matter.
Has that now changed,because i wont be able to upgrade for an fair while yet :(
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I wouldn't get too worried, you'll still be able to enjoy HDR 10 even if the source did use Dolby Vision, such as in the case of Marco Polo on Netflix. In fact based on last week's interview, the mastering of season 1 of Marco Polo appeared to be based more on the HDR 10 specifications than Dolby Vision anyway.
 

simonblue

Distinguished Member
I wouldn't get too worried, you'll still be able to enjoy HDR 10 even if the source did use Dolby Vision, such as in the case of Marco Polo on Netflix. In fact based on last week's interview, the mastering of season 1 of Marco Polo appeared to be based more on the HDR 10 specifications than Dolby Vision anyway.

I did listen to his talk you put up,the Marco Polo cinematographer,and i remember him saying to get the best from HDR,that cinematographer & lighting people were going to have to learn new method of shooting to get the most from HDR,which could mean a while yet,before we see the best of HDR :)
 

Jules

Distinguished Member
Lots of 'good questions' in there. Actually, I thought this was a very frank interview by Phil & Steve and the questions weren't all easy 'tell us how great Dolby Vision is' style questions.

As a result, some of the responses were a bit political and waffly.
Dolby Vision is good technology but needs more support in the UK.
 

ruffian2205

Well-known Member
It was a good interview. Thanks again guys. I'm frustrated as I have the LG E6 and have already amassed a handful of UHD discs but haven't bought a player yet.

I am trying to hold out for a player which will support DV (for future proofing) but sounds like they're a long way off. Noticed the X Box 4K will have HDR but no mention of DV. Fingers crossed maybe Sony will change the playing field with the PS4K. I don't mind buying a game console just for the UHD playback.

I just know I'll crack and buy the Panasonic UHD Blu-ray and then a week later LG will announce their DV enabled player.
 

Toon Army

Well-known Member
I wouldn't get too worried, you'll still be able to enjoy HDR 10 even if the source did use Dolby Vision, such as in the case of Marco Polo on Netflix. In fact based on last week's interview, the mastering of season 1 of Marco Polo appeared to be based more on the HDR 10 specifications than Dolby Vision anyway.
Steve,

Would be interested in future comparisons whereby an HDR 10 source is viewed on a Dolby Vision screen and vice versa. This could install further confidence in future purchasers, myself included.
 

google

Distinguished Member
I'm not sure that it was made clear what a Dolby Vision UHD disc will show, with regard to HDR, when viewed on a TV that isn't Dolby Vision enabled.

All that was said is that it will be left to the content providers to decide what to include on the disc. I thought that all Dolby Vision UHD discs would have to include a base layer of HDR 10. I'm just surprised that when asked about a format war the answer that was given was not short and sweet by saying that there can't be a format war because there will always be a base layer of HDR 10 on a Dolby Vision UHD disc. @Steve Withers is this not the case?
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I thought Dolby Vision used an HDR 10 base layer with the additional 2 bits and increased peak brightness as a separate layer but based on what Stephen Auld was saying, the decision rests with the content provider. If you take Netflix as an example they offer the choice of HDR 10 or Dolby Vision, depending on your display, and I guess discs would do the same. I'm sure both formats will be covered because content providers won't want to exclude the vast majority of the installed customer base.
 

pressure

Well-known Member
Good interview and as mentioned upthread well done to @Steve Withers and @Phil Hinton for their firm but fair interviewing.

But OMG was so annoying that he said "that's a great question" as his first response for nearly all questions! His language was so full of robotic jargon, man needs some media training in how to loosen up a little - and possibly be a bit more prepared.
 

geogan

Well-known Member
But OMG was so annoying that he said "that's a great question" as his first response for nearly all questions! His language was so full of robotic jargon, man needs some media training in how to loosen up a little - and possibly be a bit more prepared.

Ah come on, it's hardly easy answering difficult technical questions like he was asked on the fly and trying to come up with the correct response that quickly. I couldn't do it. Would be like a technical job interview at large tech company. And then knowing your own bosses can listen back to your answers afterwards and judge you - would be nerve racking!
 

pressure

Well-known Member
Fair comment @geogan. But I think the questions were all about topics he's been working on for many years so could have been better prepared. Maybe I'm just a bit demanding - used to be a tech journalist and PR so used to better media performances than that :)
 

geogan

Well-known Member
I'm a bit confused about one thing though. So the display is being optimised scene by scene by the dynamic metadata, and Dolby has some sort of information about the particular display to know how to display the current scene on the current display to get it to match original intent.

But does it know anything about the current display settings of the TV? Like the brightness, contrast, or other settings as set up by the user or manufacturer in some Bright, Movie, Dynamic mode. I mean how I have TV settings is very flat (natural) whereas the default out of box is setup for showroom with very bright and way too saturated colours that I would never watch.

During playback of Dolby Vision calibrated content (with dynamic metadata) could I get my remote and turn the saturation way up or the brightness way down? Surely that would completely change it so the TV is no longer showing original intent of content?

So when TV goes into this Dolby Vision mode do they "take over" the display settings somehow and lock them to some standard?
 

geogan

Well-known Member
Fair comment @geogan. But I think the questions were all about topics he's been working on for many years so could have been better prepared. Maybe I'm just a bit demanding - used to be a tech journalist and PR so used to better media performances than that :)

Fair enough. But to be prepared might mean they would give him a list of questions beforehand and he would just have written answers to those questions and just read the answers back. Sort of like the way politicians demand of TV/radio these days. I don't know if I'd prefer that. Maybe it wouldn't be too bad if it meant better answers. But I get the impression a lot of the questions are made up on the spot after they hear his last answer so wouldn't really suit the style of interview.
 

google

Distinguished Member
I thought Dolby Vision used an HDR 10 base layer with the additional 2 bits and increased peak brightness as a separate layer but based on what Stephen Auld was saying, the decision rests with the content provider. If you take Netflix as an example they offer the choice of HDR 10 or Dolby Vision, depending on your display, and I guess discs would do the same. I'm sure both formats will be covered because content providers won't want to exclude the vast majority of the installed customer base.
Yes, I thought the same with regard to the HDR 10 base layer for Dolby Vision. It will be interesting to see what actually happens on future Dolby Vision UHD discs. If you have a non DV TV but have a DV UHD Blu-ray player you would want to be clear whether or not the disc includes some form of worthwhile HDR that can be viewed on your TV.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
I'm a bit confused about one thing though. So the display is being optimised scene by scene by the dynamic metadata, and Dolby has some sort of information about the particular display to know how to display the current scene on the current display to get it to match original intent.

But does it know anything about the current display settings of the TV? Like the brightness, contrast, or other settings as set up by the user or manufacturer in some Bright, Movie, Dynamic mode. I mean how I have TV settings is very flat (natural) whereas the default out of box is setup for showroom with very bright and way too saturated colours that I would never watch.

During playback of Dolby Vision calibrated content (with dynamic metadata) could I get my remote and turn the saturation way up or the brightness way down? Surely that would completely change it so the TV is no longer showing original intent of content?

So when TV goes into this Dolby Vision mode do they "take over" the display settings somehow and lock them to some standard?
Since I have the C6 currently in for review and I have Pan on Ultra HD Blu-ray, as well as selected clips of Pan in Dolby Vision, I should be able to compare HDR 10 and DV. I also have Dolby's guide to calibrating Dolby Vision displays, which should be interesting.
 

Max108

Active Member
Since I have the C6 currently in for review and I have Pan on Ultra HD Blu-ray, as well as selected clips of Pan in Dolby Vision, I should be able to compare HDR 10 and DV. I also have Dolby's guide to calibrating Dolby Vision displays, which should be interesting.
Should indeed be interesting - looking forward to reading your findings. Can you give us some idea of how long it'll be before you post them? Thanks.
 

geogan

Well-known Member
Since I have the C6 currently in for review and I have Pan on Ultra HD Blu-ray, as well as selected clips of Pan in Dolby Vision, I should be able to compare HDR 10 and DV. I also have Dolby's guide to calibrating Dolby Vision displays, which should be interesting.

Well can you let us know if you can still mess around with all the normal picture controls for brightness, contrast, saturation etc. while Dolby Vision content is playing then because it doesn't really make sense to me that you could do this while playing it - it should lock the settings of a known TV to some exact settings so that the dynamic metadata can do its job properly.

I mean try and turn the saturation down all the way so it is in black and white and play a Dolby Vision clip and see what it does. If it just plays it in black and white then it says to be that future TVs will be just as uncalibrated and all over the place as they always have been, so this dynamic tweaking is meaningless. By right the DV system should force the TV to a certain known beginning point of colour, brightness, saturation before playing and lock them so users can't mess with them.
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
Well can you let us know if you can still mess around with all the normal picture controls for brightness, contrast, saturation etc. while Dolby Vision content is playing then because it doesn't really make sense to me that you could do this while playing it - it should lock the settings of a known TV to some exact settings so that the dynamic metadata can do its job properly.

I mean try and turn the saturation down all the way so it is in black and white and play a Dolby Vision clip and see what it does. If it just plays it in black and white then it says to be that future TVs will be just as uncalibrated and all over the place as they always have been, so this dynamic tweaking is meaningless. By right the DV system should force the TV to a certain known beginning point of colour, brightness, saturation before playing and lock them so users can't mess with them.
I think the idea is that you calibrate your Dolby Vision display against a golden reference file for that particular model, which then means the content can be mapped precisely to the display. In order to do this you would need controls available but you're right, consumers would also be free to mess around with the controls and thus adversely affect the Dolby Vision experience. Unless Dolby locked them all and only made the controls accessible to suitably equipped calibrators.
 

geogan

Well-known Member
I think the idea is that you calibrate your Dolby Vision display against a golden reference file for that particular model, which then means the content can be mapped precisely to the display. In order to do this you would need controls available but you're right, consumers would also be free to mess around with the controls and thus adversely affect the Dolby Vision experience. Unless Dolby locked them all and only made the controls accessible to suitably equipped calibrators.

Oh right, so it still needs to be calibrated then.

Yeah just means 99% of people will still have incorrect picture then even viewing DV content as I guess much less than 1% of people would bother doing a TV calibration either themselves or getting it professionallly done.
 

cooperda

Well-known Member
In a more general comment I was looking at the OLED and HDR SUHD TVs recently and although I do like the deep blacks and the peak brightness (that is now possible) I'm not conviced with the 'expanded colour' gamut (or its look as displayed in showrooms)

I was watching a clip of a King? playing chess and then walking towards the screen in a 'regal' knights armour.

The image was so 'punchy' that for a while I thought this was a CGI game 'animation' not an actor playing a scene.

When most 'tv knowledgeable' users get a new TV they usually switch straight away from that awful 'Dynamic' mode shops have TVs set on and start to customise to a more naturalist image.

So my question is - are these HDR capable TVs setup on some equivalent 'Dynamic' setting?

Is is possible to have the Dynamic range without hyper-realistic colours?

Regards daveac (cooperda)
 

Steve Withers

Reviewer
They could be set up wrong, there's plenty of controls for shop assistants to abuse. I also don't know what content they were showing but a good Ultra HD Blu-ray being played correctly should looking stunning with completely natural colours. As normal the weak place in the chain is always the point of sale.
 

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