AV Receiver/Processor - with better sound quality than Audiolab 8200AP & 8200CDQ?

DIRAC is a much more sophisticated room EQ than Audyssey (which the Denon uses), however Audyssey is much easier to set up.
Dirac Live 1 & 3 were not a problem for me to setup. I have been really impressed by Dirac, but I've not tried any other system.
I have two legacy pieces of kit here for comparison - a Denon AVC-A11XV, and an Arcam AV9/P7 combo.
For surround sound, the Denon definitely does 'steer' much better and sounds more lively. That impressed me on a short listen. However, with extended listening, I found that Audyssey did too much damage to the signal, and the speakers simply disappear with the Arcam in a way that the Denon could not match (and that is without any EQ on the Arcam).
Every Denon AVR series amp I've heard has been very weak with music, with no exceptions.
Thank you for the comparison, as we can't test audio equipment in the UK, due to the current lockdown, our only option is to base the decision on other's opinions. ASR reviews the new Denons as performing well for an AVR, but ASR doesn't have a review of my Audiolab 8200AP, or any Audiolab for that matter. My previous AVR was a Denon, and it was a huge step up in fidelity to my 8200AP.
Have you tried running the Arcam 550 bypassing all the processing? That is my preferred way to run all AV kit even if they have sophisticated EQ. Set all speakers to 'large' and sub to 'on' and disable the EQ.
Unfortunately for all the sophistication of modern processing, basic things like digital crossovers add a lot of distortion.
I tried all options, the best to my ears was small speakers, preouts to poweramp, with Dirac enabled.
I should add that switching AV receivers at this level in my view is only likely to make minor differences to sound quality. I do not agree the Anthem etc would make a large difference.
Not sure where to go next with this... I have packed up the AVR550 and plugged in my old setup, with a few practical tweaks and an audible improvement (not bridging power amp channels).
I still have a niggling curiosity based on ASR's poor reviews of the AVR390/850 and the good reviews of the x3700h/x4700h, but I am sceptical until I hear either of them.
 
Dirac Live 1 & 3 were not a problem for me to setup. I have been really impressed by Dirac, but I've not tried any other system.

Thank you for the comparison, as we can't test audio equipment in the UK, due to the current lockdown, our only option is to base the decision on other's opinions. ASR reviews the new Denons as performing well for an AVR, but ASR doesn't have a review of my Audiolab 8200AP, or any Audiolab for that matter. My previous AVR was a Denon, and it was a huge step up in fidelity to my 8200AP.

I tried all options, the best to my ears was small speakers, preouts to poweramp, with Dirac enabled.

Not sure where to go next with this... I have packed up the AVR550 and plugged in my old setup, with a few practical tweaks and an audible improvement (not bridging power amp channels).
I still have a niggling curiosity based on ASR's poor reviews of the AVR390/850 and the good reviews of the x3700h/x4700h, but I am sceptical until I hear either of them.

I have posted at length about this before. The ASR tests are in my view completely unreliable.

I had a Denon 3808 here a few weeks back to play with - which measures absolutely superbly. In fact it measures better than my Arcam AV9. However, it took about 10 seconds of listening to distinguish which was the superior amp.

Measurements are useful in some bits of kit (DACs, power amps) for specific types of use. If you need to fill a very large space, power is usually essential.

One of the very best stereo amps ever made, the Sugden A21a, it also one of the worst measuring. It can barely cough out 20W at high distortion and is unstable into lower frequencies and heavily clipped at the top end.

Listen to one set up properly and, as I think Paul Messenger said about it 20 years ago, you instantly know you are hearing something close to a live performance.

Use measurements as a guide but trust your ears. IMO measurements serve their use by exposing manufacturing claims, and they are especially useful for kit matching.
 
I have just arranged for a swap of the Arcam AVR550, to the Denon x4700h ...I need to hear it.
If it doesn't work out, I'll stick with my existing kit.
 
I have just arranged for a swap of the Arcam AVR550, to the Denon x4700h ...I need to hear it.
If it doesn't work out, I'll stick with my existing kit.
Interesting! I shall look forward to reading about how you get on.
 
I have just arranged for a swap of the Arcam AVR550, to the Denon x4700h ...I need to hear it.
If it doesn't work out, I'll stick with my existing kit.

Please report back your findings!
 
So far, much better.
The Denon X4700H sounds much closer to my existing system.

I cancelled the initial Audyssey setup to get into the settings to put it into full 'Preamp' mode.
I updated the firmware and ran the 8 mic measurements, using the built in assistant.

I started by comparing the X4700H against my 8200CDQ with stereo music.
SB Touch > Optical > Denon X4700H > RCA > Bryston 9B-SST (1V) > PMC Twenty5.26
SB Touch > Coax > Audiolab 8200CDQ > XLR > Bryston 9B-SST (2V) > PMC Twenty5.26

This time, I can hear the detail through the X4700H that is present in my 8200CDQ. After a few hours of listening, I think the difference is now more about how it sounds. I tried with Audyssey enabled, Direct & Pure Direct and so far with stereo, I prefer with Audyssey enabled. The 8200CDQ is still more natural, there is more separation between instruments, the high frequencies are clearer and easier to listen too; I wonder if this can be solved with tweaking EQ setting, but this could make it worse. I will eventually try the 8200CDQ or M-DAC in line level mode, to test the X4700H's preamp.

For surround sound, I setup the speakers as 5.1.2 and tested 5.1 source material. It is trickier to do A/B testing as more unplugging/plugging in is required; but I would say the sound, from a clarity and natural sound point of view, with the X4700H, is as good as I remember from the previous day using my 8200AP 8-channel preamp/DAC. With Audyssey enabled vs Pure Direct, the sound was more natural, but the level of integration of speakers into the room wasn't as great as I remember when I enabled Dirac Live on my 8200AP. I think I need to spend more time with this, as I haven't downloaded the Audyssey iOS app yet, so I will do this and run the measurements again. I could use REW and my UMIK-1 to test the results after too.

From a video point of view, I have my Nvidia Shield plugged directly into the X4700H, rather than through my CA CXUHD bluray player, and it now looks a little washed out, it probably just needs settings to be tweaked, I haven't spent much time on this apart from noticing the initial difference.

In full Preamp mode, the Denon X4700H gets warm after use all day, but not hot as I have read with this AVR. This is useful, as my cabinet is quite confined. I haven't tested the internal amps yet.
 
I would strongly recommend some long-term listening with Audyssey before coming to a conclusion. I was impressed at first but listening fatigue set in quite quickly afterwards.
 
I would strongly recommend some long-term listening with Audyssey before coming to a conclusion. I was impressed at first but listening fatigue set in quite quickly afterwards.
I'll monitor it, I've not suffered from listener fatigue for a while, not with any of my current systems at least (except iphone headphones). Did you get this from music and movies/TV? Did you try to fix it?
 
I'll monitor it, I've not suffered from listener fatigue for a while, not with any of my current systems at least (except iphone headphones). Did you get this from music and movies/TV? Did you try to fix it?

Both. There was a glare - not quite sibilance exactly - on vocals that I couldn't get rid of. Was too much.

In every other respect I adore the Denon kit for HC.
 
Both. There was a glare - not quite sibilance exactly - on vocals that I couldn't get rid of. Was too much.

I sent back the Denon X4700H. I put in about 20hours of TV and film, but the sound was not to my taste. I couldn't entirely put my finger on what it was, but it just wasn't as easy to listen to.

To keep it consistent when comparing: I excluded my nanoAVRs, set the 8200AP speakers as large, levels to 75dB, and approx distances. For the Arcam AVR550 & Denon X4700H, I tried many options and I always prefered the sound of the 8200AP. Once I enable Dirac on the nanoAVR DL and bass management on the nanoAVR HD, the sound pulls far ahead.

I have (during this process) made a number of improvements to my existing setup and I am now much happier with both the practicality of the setup and sound quality.

Usability improvements:
  • For equipment without remote power control, I swapped a flaky IR controlled power socket, to Philips Hue Bridge & plugs.
  • swapped CXUHD hdmi input switch to an Ezcoo 4x2 matrix, to fix connection & HDCP issues
  • For stereo music, swapped audio embedder to a Deleycon device and audio extractor to an Ezcoo device, which now works
  • updated HDMI & USB cables, some had connection issues, or just not long enough to allow easy tweaking & calibrating
  • Adjusted settings to nvidia Shield to improve AV sync issues, all devices now on 0ms delay
  • Updated Logitech Harmony remote activities, with help from Logitech support
  • Replaced Linn C4100 4ch power amp for a cheap 2ch amp, which is more than adequate for the Kef T101 pair.
Audio quality improvements:
  • Swapped from bridging 2 power amp channels per speaker, to using just 1 channel per speaker (Less distortion).
  • More accurate Dirac speaker measurements using nanoAVR DL (ensuring all other filters and crossovers are now off/bypassed)
  • Better Dirac room eq curves, having learned a lot from Arcam AVR550 setup guides
  • Bass management and crossovers tweaked to suit each speaker.
  • changed 8200AP dac filter from slow to fast (more exciting sound)
  • Discovered 8200AP forces a 100Hz LPF to sub channel, and tweaked setup to accommodate
  • Better setup of 5.1 / 7.1 channel routing to swap back pair for surround pair
  • Finally managed to apply Dirac room eq to my stereo music (2.0) and with my room, I wish I had this from the start, the improvement is astonishing.
Remaining issues
  • Must swap nanoAVR HD & DL during calibration.
  • 8200AP applies a 100Hz LPF to the subwoofer channel and can't be disabled, my sub is capable of closer to 200Hz, I would need a new 8ch dac/preamp to overcome this.
  • Philips Hue plugs sometimes don't turn on/off with the remote's Activity
  • HDMI-optical audio embedder needs the downstream 8200AP 'on' to enable optical audio to output to stereo preamp. I can then turn 8200AP 'off' after and it continues to work, probably a EDID issue, have tried a dongle, but didn't work, will try a different one.
  • No 'nightmode', but this should be possible using nanoAVR HD compression settings, needs investigating.
To improve on my existing sound system, I think I'll need to spend a lot more, on a high end prepro with the latest Dirac Live inc BM. I'd be interested to hear the recent Monolith HTP-1, which isn't available in UK yet. Also, I would like to grab an old Nuforce AVP-18, if one comes up second hand, to test if it fixes the 8200AP issues with sub LPF & nanoAVR bug.
 
Concretely, in Dolby mix, there is nothing on the LFE channel above 120 Hz

Better setup of 5.1 / 7.1 channel routing to swap back pair for surround pair
I'm interested of more details on this : because of this point, I change my 8000AP (+NanoAVR DL) for Meridian G68 (+ NanoAVR DL).
I have a very complex system of selector and change levels in menu to use sourround back in 5.1, but it was too complex in current use...
 
Concretely, in Dolby mix, there is nothing on the LFE channel above 120 Hz
Hi Domin. For bass management, I use an upstream nanoAVR HD to first mix the LFE input channel (0dB gain) with LPF's of the other 7 input channels (-10dB gain each) into the sub output channel, I set a HPF on the other 7 input channels and output all 8ch to the nanoAVR DL for Room EQ. A higher sub frequency range would allow me to crossover the other 7 speakers with a higher LPF/HPF. It's not the end of the world though, as my speakers can go low enough.
Better setup of 5.1 / 7.1 channel routing to swap back pair for surround pair
I'm interested of more details on this : because of this point, I change my 8000AP (+NanoAVR DL) for Meridian G68 (+ NanoAVR DL).
I have a very complex system of selector and change levels in menu to use sourround back in 5.1, but it was too complex in current use...
My setup has speakers at each end of the sofa placed against back wall very close to where 'surround' channel speakers should be in a surround setup (100° from forward). I have another pair of wall mounted speakers midway between these surround speakers and the fronts, which are not in a typical location for any speakers in a 7.1 surround setup. Most content is 5.1 so I just don't use the mid-way wall mounted speakers. For 7.1, I swap the surround and rear channels so they are the right way round, even though the angles of the speakers are not as an ideal surround setup.

Having the HD upstream of the DL allows me to change the Routing/BM/Xover independently of the Dirac Room EQ downstream, which applies EQ to the full range of each speaker, regardless of what channel is sent to it. (I hope I have this right, it sounds good).

My nanoAVR HD's 4 presets are as follows:
1. 5.1 - rear input/output channels are off/muted, BM and Xover set to other channels (I plan to update this to reroute the rear channel inputs at -3dB into the surround channels for faux-7.1, without using my mid-way wall mounted speakers)
2. 7.1 - rear inputs are redirected to surround outputs & surround inputs redirected to rear outputs, BM and Xover as '5.1'
3. 5.1plus - not set up yet, but I plan to reroute the rear input channels at -3dB to the surround outputs and mix -3dB of surround and -3dB of the front into the rear outputs (my mid-way wall mounted speakers) not sure if this would be successful in evening-out the room.
4. Stereo/Calibration - all inputs are output straight through as default, no BM, no cross-overs, no filters. I use this for full range stereo, which can have Dirac applied downstream. I also use this during Calibration when I move the HD downstream of the DL to remove the 8200AP 'silent bug'.

My nanoAVR DL's 4 presets are as follows:
1. Sofa Wide1 - default Dirac Curve
2. Sofa Wide2 - Harman +6dB Dirac Curve
3. Narrow Centre - smaller area in middle of sofa for 1 person, Harman +6dB Dirac Curve
4. Chair - Single chair in middle of room for a more typical 7.1 surround speaker arrangement
 
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Really interesting thread, can I ask ARNiTECT a quick question, I noticed you run your Bryston in bridged mode into your PMC's, can I ask what benefit you noticed as apposed to driving then normally, very curious as my system is very similar and have thought of trying the bridged option.
 
Really interesting thread, can I ask ARNiTECT a quick question, I noticed you run your Bryston in bridged mode into your PMC's, can I ask what benefit you noticed as apposed to driving then normally, very curious as my system is very similar and have thought of trying the bridged option.
It seems to be speaker dependent.
I preferred the Bryson bridged with my previous PMC FB1i’s. The bass was the noticeable improvement, it sounded stronger, faster and the sound just better overall. When I installed new PMC Twenty5.26’s a couple of years ago, I just plugged them in bridged. It was only a few weeks ago I had all my hifi equipment out that I tried comparing a number of tracks with & without bridging. I now noticed no difference in bass and the sound wasn’t as clear, with some distortion; vocals in particular weren't as convincing.
When bridging, I used a pair of Vandamme Y-splitter XLR cables from pre amp to power amp, a thick gauge speaker cable between amps, reversed polarity of one channel, adjust sensitivity switch.
 
It seems to be speaker dependent.
I preferred the Bryson bridged with my previous PMC FB1i’s. The bass was the noticeable improvement, it sounded stronger, faster and the sound just better overall. When I installed new PMC Twenty5.26’s a couple of years ago, I just plugged them in bridged. It was only a few weeks ago I had all my hifi equipment out that I tried comparing a number of tracks with & without bridging. I now noticed no difference in bass and the sound wasn’t as clear, with some distortion; vocals in particular weren't as convincing.
When bridging, I used a pair of Vandamme Y-splitter XLR cables from pre amp to power amp, a thick gauge speaker cable between amps, reversed polarity of one channel, adjust sensitivity switch.
Thanks ARNiTECT for your response, I did think of adding a 4b just to drive the front pair or possible bridging but I have heard mixed success with the bridging option, my 26's seem very current hungry or perhaps I listen at to high a volume, food for thought, thanks again for taking the time to reply.
 
Surprised Anthem don't make a processor. Would have thought that would be worth a look.

Or the Marantz AV8805?
 
I have been briefly investigating the possibilities using 'DACs/Preamp' rather than an 'HT Processor', as my CXUHD bluray player is doing the processing of my sources.

I came across the Okto Research dac8 PRO 8 channel DAC/preamp, which looks interesting. From my nanoAVR DL, I would need a Meridian HD621 (second-hand) HDMI switcher to extract 8 digital channels from the balanced 'MMHR' RJ-45 output to 4x XLR AES. The HD621 is limited to 24bit/48Khz, but I understand the nanoAVR DL only outputs 48Khz anyway. I would hope the quality would allow me to replace both 8200AP & 8200CDQ.

...another option, is to use the Meridian HD621 'SmartLink' un-balanced RCA outputs into 4x stereo DACs. The DACs would output at line level to an 8-channel preamp, such as my 8200AP's 7.1 analogue inputs, or a better 8-channel preamp. This option would allow more flexibility, but would probably be more expensive, with far more parts.
 
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Diral Live in NanoAVR works in 48 kHz
Meridian HD621 accepts 96 Hz max but if you input 48 kHz in it, it outputs 96 kHz (if you want)

I change from NanoAVR DL + 8000ap to NanoAVR DL + Meridian HD621 + G68.
My only regret is G68 doesn't accept 8 channels, only 6. Even if it creates 8 channels with Pl2x
 
My AV processor project is coming together now.

I finally got hold of a Meridian HD621 for a reasonable price and after trying a few RS232-USB cables, I configured the HD621 as follows:
  • Audio output: SmartLink/MMHR
  • MHR Connection: None
  • Linear PCM: 8 Ch.
  • Dolby/AAC/DTS: No
  • Output Rate 2x (96k): No
  • MHR: No

At my desk, I tested a few tracks with and without the HD621:
A - PC Foobar > (coax) > Audiolab M-DAC > Beyerdynamic DT990pro
B - PC Foobar > (hdmi) > HD621 SPDIF > (coax) > Audiolab M-DAC > Beyerdynamic DT990pro
I couldn't hear a difference.

The Okto Dac8 Pro won't be available for a loooong time, so I bought 3x Topping E30 DACs and 1x Prozor DAC, which gives me 6 no. very high quality DAC channels for my Bryston/PMC/Sub and 2 no. 'functional' DAC channels for my KEF/Fosi. To control master volume, I could use either my Audiolab 8200AP in analogue preamp 'bypass' mode, or use the nanoAVR DL's 32bit digital volume control. The 8200AP has a display to indicate the volume level and would be safer against accidental speaker damage. The Topping E30 has the connections I need: Coax for Dirac correction from HD621 (stereo & surround sources), Optical for disc playback from CXUHD, USB for Squeezebox Touch 24/192.

To minimise the pulling of cables, I tested my current optimal living room stereo dac/pre (A) against the proposed surround dac/pre (B):
A - Squeezebox Touch > (coax) > Audiolab 8200CDQ dac/pre > (xlr) > Bryston > PMCs
B - Squeezebox Touch > (opt) > Topping E30 > (rca) > Audiolab 8200AP analogue preamp > (rca) > Audiolab 8200CDQ HT passthrough > (xlr) > Bryston > PMCs
I was surprised that it was such a quick clear win for setup B, the Topping E30! I was hearing new details in familiar music, it was smooth and very easy to listen to. I concluded that the quality would only improve by removing the redundant 8200CDQ in HT passthrough and later I could test removing the 8200AP preamp, for nanoAVR digital volume control.

I hope adding in the HD621 and nanoAVRs will just correct for the room without noticeably softening the detail. I'll try this on the weekend.

Diagram of system:
 

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The living room AV system is now complete and I am really pleased with it!

I managed to resolve a few issues with the DACs, but now it is all tested and fully programmed into my Harmony Elite remote for easy use by all the family.

For stereo, I have the option of sending the audio through the nanoAVRs for bass management (2.0 or 2.1) and room correction, or just output direct from source to DAC. It depends on the music which option sounds better, but often it is direct.

Surround sound always goes through the nanoAVRs, as this sounds better than not corrected and it allows me to reroute my side to rear speakers, as described in an earlier post regarding nanoAVR settings.

I'm still amazed by how much better this sounds across all sources. Vocals and dialogue are clearer and more real, there is more air around acoustic instruments, bass is tighter. All this also allows us to listen at lower volumes at night.

The HD621 is always on, as it has no remote. When powered at the socket, it starts in standby mode needing a press of the front selector button to wake. I don't need to change HDMI inputs, but it would be nice to put it into standby when not in use. I'm investigating options for controlling this (RS232, IR module, old Meridian controller).

The issues I had with the Topping E30 DACs:
  • Hum from the Topping E30s when they shared power with any other device plugged into the same USB charger hub. I resolved this, by using a separate USB mains plug for each DAC.
  • IR remote is not accurate: sometimes one E30 gets left behind and its tricky to match them up. So, I fitted a USB powered IR Repeater (1 Receiver & 4 Emitters) and the remote control now works 100% across all DACs.
  • E30's auto standby mode doesn't work with the HD621, or the Squeezebox Touch. So, I disabled auto standby and instead power the DACs on/off using existing Hue Bridge plugs. This allows me to separate DAC1 for stereo direct use (on with power amp) and DACs 234 for surround (on with nanoAVRs)
  • I needed more inputs, so I installed a IR remote controlled 3-in x 2-out optical toslink switch.

I'm also glad to be rid of so many other glitches from my previous setup, such as: the 8200AP occasional 'silence' when turning on (requiring 1 or more power cycles of all components), occasional skipping if content was paused (rewinding a bit helped), inconsistent A-V sync across Netflix/Prime/Emby, 8200AP HDMI input 100Hz LPF on the sub channel limiting the sub's range for BM (8200AP's 8ch analogue inputs have no LPF), 8200AP needs nanoAVR HD between to allow DL to calibrate, volume limit of 8200AP with HDMI input (analogue inputs are 12dB louder).

I'll see how it all runs over the next few weeks.
 

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My AV processor project is coming together now.

I finally got hold of a Meridian HD621 for a reasonable price and after trying a few RS232-USB cables, I configured the HD621 as follows:
  • Audio output: SmartLink/MMHR
  • MHR Connection: None
  • Linear PCM: 8 Ch.
  • Dolby/AAC/DTS: No
  • Output Rate 2x (96k): No
  • MHR: No
Hello ARNiTECT,

I am a bit confused regarding the digital audio outputs you use from the HD621 to the DACs

Are you using the 4 RCA plugs labbeled "SmartLink" or the RJ-45 plug labbeled "MMHR" ?
Do the RCA plugs output standard stereo SPDIF ? Do you need specific cables ?

Thanks
 
Are you using the 4 RCA plugs labbeled "SmartLink" or the RJ-45 plug labbeled "MMHR" ?
Do the RCA plugs output standard stereo SPDIF ? Do you need specific cables ?

Hi, I am using the 4x RCA sockets labelled Smartlink as my 4x stereo DACs only have unbalanced inputs. I have heard of others using the HD621's MMHR output, with an RJ-45 to XLR cable for balanced output. I don't know where to get one of these cables, I suspect they may need to be custom made. The settings I used for the Smartlink plugs are on the post above.
 
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So, did you ever find anything better than the 8200AP? I ask because I am treading the same path and so far I have the feeling that I may better it but only at exorbitant cost.
 
So, did you ever find anything better than the 8200AP? I ask because I am treading the same path and so far I have the feeling that I may better it but only at exorbitant cost.

Tonewinner at-300? The only affordable AV pre really. Need to double the price to get another AV pre.
 

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