1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

AV Forums dvd Joni Mitchell review

Discussion in 'Music & Music Streaming Services' started by Philly112, Sep 21, 2004.

  1. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    Now, before I start ranting, just to say that I consider the review section generally excellent, and am indebted to the guys (and women?) who give their time freely and without pay to review the latest discs.
    OK - now, the latest review of Joni Mitchell's Shadows and Light by Sigismund. I haven't seen the dvd (except on TV in the early 80's), and so can't comment on the sound and technical aspects (I remember the film that I saw had some dodgy 'video' moments!!).
    But, but, but - Sigismund indicates that he can't stand this type of music, and has had no exposure to Joni Mitchell before this dvd.
    Might as well get my Mum to review John Coltrane then.
    He also mentions that this dvd represents a somewhat flavourless taste of her output. How would he know - he's not 'knowingly' heard anything of her output - his words, not mine.
    I have the album version of this concert, and the music is beyond criticism (IMHO of course!!).
    Sigismund's criticism of the sound and video may be accurate, but his comments about his lack of knowledge of this type of material make his observations on the content invalid.
    Rant over!
    Phil
     
  2. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    Not really fair to rubbish a third of his review because of one sentence contained therein. :nono:

    I am not a fan of jazz/deconstructed music either and also not familiar with much Joni Mitchell music. Sigismund's review told me everything I needed to know: the music is jazz/folk (which puts me off immediatly)and not a very good attempt either. This Joni Mitchell DVD is unlikely to appeal to people like me (or Sigismund) who don't like jazz and isn't likely to change my opinion of jazz either.

    The Joni Mitchell fans at the concert only got involved near the end (when the alcohol had kicked in? :laugh: ) and therefore his comment about a flavourless Joni Mitchell concert are still valid.

    Had it been a really good show, it would have been better received by Sigimund and perhaps encouraged him to try other Joni music. As the show seems to be a bit weak(both as ashow and as far as the Mitchell fans seemed to react), his comments are therefore all accurate - IMO of course. :)
     
  3. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    Shame on you Sigismund - The folksy singer songwriter was a creature of the late sixties and early seventies and Joni was one of quite a few that were popular around that time.

    She must be about 60 by now and I wouldn't mind guessing that she is still singing about that Big Yellow Taxi.
     
  4. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    I couldn't disagree more of course!!! What does the phrase 'deconstructed music' mean, and what has it got to do with Joni Mitchell's music??
    The comment wasn't that it was a flavourless concert, but a flavourless taste of her output. This implies that maybe the rest of the output is not flavourless (and as he hasn't heard any, how would he know? - maybe it's all bol****s).
    I guess my main gripe is that to, say, review a Floyd, Oasis, Beatles, Stones etc etc dvd without knowing the music, or liking the style, would maybe have raised a few eyebrows
     
  5. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    I'm not sure I want you on my side!!!
     
  6. Nobber22

    Nobber22
    Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    2,977
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Berkshire
    Ratings:
    +109
    Does this mean that if I reviewed an Animi DVD - I've never seen one - my review would be worthless? Even if I said I loved it?

    A reviewer coming upon a new artist for the first time is entitled to give their opinion. A reviewer who has never heard ANY music before and gave an opinion on that whole genre would certainly raise eyebrows......otherwise you compare it with what YOU know.
     
  7. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
    Editor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    9,717
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    AVForums
    Ratings:
    +6,984
    Everybody's having a go at Sigs, but he didn't write the review. If you look at the top of the reviews you will see who writes them, myself and Sigs post them to the forum, but don't always write them;)
     
  8. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    Thanks for that!! (actually it's only me having a go - so Sigismund, many apologies, and Russell, well, err, I'm having a go...!!)
     
  9. Sigismund

    Sigismund
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +102
    What's going on here - is it "bash Sigi week" or something? :D

    Guys and gals... and especially Monsieur Ian J - Just because I place the review threads doesn't mean I write all the reviews!

    Not only is Ms Mitchell not one of my five overated artists, but I suspect I am even less knowledgable of her and her music than Russell, who on the whole wrote a fairly even handed review, I think. In fact, I reckon he likes Ms Mitchell's music more than I enjoyed Blazing Saddles :devil:

    All grovelling and posts by way of sincere apology most gratefully accepted :D :hiya: :devil: :cool: :thumbsup:

    Sigs
     
  10. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
    Editor Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2001
    Messages:
    9,717
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    AVForums
    Ratings:
    +6,984
    Reviews are never more than one persons opinion, you will always have instances where opinions differ.
    As for reviewing things they don't know, i probably watch a film for the first time when i review it, is that any different to reviewing a band you have never heard?
     
  11. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    Sigismund - see my apologies above!!!!!
    Phil
     
  12. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475
    Not only is Ms Mitchell not one of my five overated artists, but I suspect I am even less knowledgable of her and her music than Russell, who on the whole wrote a fairly even handed review, I think. In fact, I reckon he likes Ms Mitchell's music more than I enjoyed Blazing Saddles

    Sigs[/QUOTE]


    Hang on guys - Russell says in the review he has not had any exposure to her music other than this dvd (knowingly, that is). So how less knowledgable can you be, Sigi!!
    OK, ignore that - as you can gather, I'm a big fan, and you guys are all mooses for not being fans!!!
     
  13. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475

    My final thoughts on the review (these are Russell's word's)


    ... But then, I don’t like this kind of music – at all.
     
  14. Ian J

    Ian J
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Messages:
    25,529
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +4,906
    I was just stirring - idling away the time during a break for lunch in the cricket
     
  15. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    So, to echo what Philly112 says, what use is the review to potential buyers of the disc, namely those who do appreciate "...this kind of music..."? A bit like a Gareth Gates fan reviewing a Stravinsky recital. Pointless.

    I have owned the album of this concert for quite a few years. There isn't a trace of "folk" music to be found anywhere on it. Mitchell emerged from a folk-tinged singer-songwriter tradition, but hasn't ploughed that particular furrow for about thirty years. Anyone who thinks the music on this disc is folk-jazz, folk-rock or folk anything needs their ears cleaning out.

    Haven't seen the DVD so can't comment on the PQ, but any fans of Mitchell (particularly of her collaborations with Jaco Pastorious) certainly won't be disappointed with the musical content.

    And yes, I'd like to know exactly what "...jazz/deconstructed..." music is too... :confused:
     
  16. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    For an alternative (and more informed) viewpoint, the editorial review from Amazon.com:

    "Joni Mitchell's 1970s and '80s forays into jazzier territory may have distressed her folkie faithful, but they also resulted in some uncompromising, challenging, and, yes, entertaining music. Witness this 73-minute document from her '79 tour, which finds her backed by her greatest band ever, including guitarist Pat Metheny and the extraordinary bassist Jaco Pastorius, as well as Metheny cohort Lyle Mays (keyboards), Michael Brecker (sax), and Don Alias (drums). Mitchell's The Hissing of Summer Lawns-Hejira-Mingus period is heavily favored; there are two tunes from Court and Spark, but nothing earlier. It's not perfect--the film clips edited into the live tracks (at Mitchell's direction) are an annoying distraction (Rebel Without a Cause? Huh?). But by the time Mitchell, Mays, and vocal group the Persuasions finish a spine-tingling version of the title song, you'll have witnessed something special--and historic, as this was the only time this stellar crew toured together. --Sam Graham"

    Aside from the above editorial review, 29 consumer reviews give it an average rating of 4.5 out of 5.
     
  17. Sigismund

    Sigismund
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Messages:
    5,376
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +102
    I'm not sure why you're talking about "folk" - Russell's review doesn't even mention the word!

    I'm always amazed when people seem to take a review to heart when one persons take on the material being reviewed differs to ones own!

    Surely the main point of the reviews here is to test that which you can't test without parting with your hard earned - namely picture and audio quality. The musical content/performance included in the DVD wasn't to Russell's liking - what's wrong with that?

    It's OK having every review written by a "fan" of the content, but where's the objectivity in that? It sounds like you enjoy Joni Mitchell's stuff and merely object when someone has a different opinion to your own!

    Personally I think Russell has been up front, and has made it clear from the off that the musical content was not to his personal taste. By contrast, he could have ended up being enlightened to Joni Mitchell's style and have become a convert. But had he done so, why would his new found musical taste in any way affect your own? In the same way, why should his dislike of this kind of thing affect you? I'm sure his review of image and audio quality are quite accurate!

    What's the point of listing 29 reviews where people have indicated their like of this release? How many people are likely to buy a music DVD such as this if they're not already Mitchell fans?!

    It seems to me that all that's really being said here is that some people like Joni Mitchell and some people don't!! Personally, I think Russell's review is a nice objective one. If he had reviewed Elvis' Aloha From Hawaii in the same way I would have no qualms with a review professing ignorance of the King's qualitites - that he may be unable to appreciate them in the same way that I might I take as a given and certainly not worthy of any stick from me!

    Sigs
     
  18. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    I didn't say the mention of "folk" music was contained in the review. I was addressing the comments made in one of the other posts, the same one that mentioned "...jazz/deconstructed music..."

    Nor am I suggesting for a moment that a fan should review the music. But surely it would help if someone with some degree of empathy for the music under discussion were to conduct the review. They may or may not like the particular piece under review, but at least they will have established frames of reference for their critique, be it good or bad.

    Russell's own quote...

    ...makes it quite clear that it isn't Mitchell in particular that he doesn't like, but it is rather an entire genre of music that holds no appeal for him. Fine - no problem with that - to each his own, but then what chance do we have for an informed review?

    Look at any music publication and you'll see certain reviewers' names constantly cropping up in reviews of certain genres of music, but not others. That's because they don't personally engage with certain styles / genres, so there's little point in assigning the review to them as it will contain little or no interest in, or insight into, the music at hand.

    After all, surely the purpose of the review is to help the potential audience for the product to make an informed choice. Little chance of that if the entire genre leaves a reviewer cold, let alone an individual artist working in that genre.
     
  19. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,754
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,427
    Philly, I think you have two objections. First that the reviewer didn't like the band.
    You can't really complain about that.
    Second that the reviewer didn't know the band.
    Well we need more reviewers. If you are prepared to do the work, can write well and have a good enough home cinema then please apply to THX 1138.
     
  20. the_pauley

    the_pauley
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2002
    Messages:
    4,066
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +198
    By the way, if Russell doesn't want the review copy of the disc there's a good home waiting for it! :)
     
  21. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,179
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,475

    As you will see from my very first post, I actually greatly admire the work that goes into these reviews - I hope you are not implying that unless I want to become a reviewer I shouldn't criticise? I would like to think that one of the main joys to be had from these forums is a bit of lively banter like this!!
    Phil

    PS And just thought of this - surely the comments from myself and Pauley add to the review - I mean, anyone stupid enough to be following this thread will now have read 29 Amazon reviews, my rantings, Pauleys excellent prose, and Russells original review. God, that must be 35 for the price of one.
     

Share This Page

Loading...