UPDATED. Audyssey Time Alignment Correction in Denon and Marantz AVR's and AVP's. Plus info about Loudness Management Settings.

Why is it more work, let alone costing more money? You are actually saving a little (minute) processing power by skipping conversion when doing calibration.
I mean in development and testing, not runtime.
Runtime work for receiver is insignificant.
 
I mean in development and testing, not runtime.
Runtime work for receiver is insignificant.

Thank you for the clarification, we can agree to disagree on this. I am not a professional programmer but I think the so called 2 logic path you referred to may amount to 1 or two short line of additional codes, and it is a one time effort for a permanent gain in efficiency/processing power saving, though the difference will tiny/minute/negligible.

Anyway, I reopen my AskAudyssey ticket, hopefully this time they will not refer me to D+M, as I specifically ask my question on MultEQ X. It is a $200 deal, one that I really want to know as much as possible about how it does things differently/better, than the $20 app. No more D+M AV gear at the moment but I may go back to it in the future and MultEQ X looks very promising, and it seems possible that if they do well enough, we can expect them to further improve the actual filter creation algorithm for better results, not just on the interface flexibility/convenience features.
 
As a professional programmer there is no gain in efficiency worth doing that way. You're talking about a few multiplies per channel on startup/changing settings. It's completely insignificant for hardware/cpu.

Even if it did do that, why didn't the Denon engineer say so, that it was not a problem since the delay was used directly if you don't change distances? They didn't. They said the speed of sound constant was good enough used in the calculation.
 
As a professional programmer there is no gain in efficiency worth doing that way. You're talking about a few multiplies per channel on startup/changing settings. It's completely insignificant for hardware/cpu.

Even if it did do that, why didn't the Denon engineer say so, that it was not a problem since the delay was used directly if you don't change distances? They didn't. They said the speed of sound constant was good enough used in the calculation.

We have to agree to disagree, as one cannot convince the other. You think it is a better way and I think it is not, you have your reasons and I have mine. I said repeatedly you might be right. Even if everything you said is the way Denon/Marantz did it, it wouldn't mean it is the better way, it would boil down to a subjective thing. There are just different ways to do things. This has been just a discussion out of curiosity. If D+M has already fixed the speed constant, there should be no issue regardless of who's right or wrong.
 
apologies if this has been covered before. Confused here.

My Cinema 40 has x2 speaker presets. I have then the same. Yet to change from one to the other I go setup/manual setup/speaker preset and change.

Ive run Audyssey on the AVR with speaker preset 1 active. Ive also run Audy on the Editor App and I’m not sure if the app calibration has overwritten the avr’s calibration.

Thought I’d changed to preset 2 before running the App calibration. If I go through the menu as above and use manual setup to change to preset 2 then open Audy, it looks like there is no calibration there as there is no option to restore and it looks like a fresh calibration is needed.

How do I get to having an AVR on 1 and the Editor app calibration on preset 2. I’d like to be able to tweak and compare the two Sorry if the answer is blinking obvious. I want to give Audy a good try before thinking about Dirac.

Thanks.
 
apologies if this has been covered before. Confused here.

My Cinema 40 has x2 speaker presets. I have then the same. Yet to change from one to the other I go setup/manual setup/speaker preset and change.

Ive run Audyssey on the AVR with speaker preset 1 active. Ive also run Audy on the Editor App and I’m not sure if the app calibration has overwritten the avr’s calibration.

Thought I’d changed to preset 2 before running the App calibration. If I go through the menu as above and use manual setup to change to preset 2 then open Audy, it looks like there is no calibration there as there is no option to restore and it looks like a fresh calibration is needed.

How do I get to having an AVR on 1 and the Editor app calibration on preset 2. I’d like to be able to tweak and compare the two Sorry if the answer is blinking obvious. I want to give Audy a good try before thinking about Dirac.

Thanks.

When you send a file from the App it will usually ask you which Preset you want to save it to.

Easiest way to check if you've overwritten the AVR calibration is to open the App and compare the speaker settings, levels etc to those already stored in the AVR in the Audyssey menu.

If they're identical then it's likely the App file was also stored in Preset 1. If that's the case you'd need to run Audyssey from the AVR again and save it to Preset 1. Then just send your App file to Preset 2 afterwards.

If the AVR and App already show different results just resend the App file to Preset 2 and then you can switch between them to compare.
 
Sorry I haven’t kept up with this entire thread, I was just wondering if any of the last few updates I’ve had on my marantz sr7012 have corrected the distances now and I need to set them back as Audyssey originally set them ?.
 
Sorry I haven’t kept up with this entire thread, I was just wondering if any of the last few updates I’ve had on my marantz sr7012 have corrected the distances now and I need to set them back as Audyssey originally set them ?.

No, the 'issue' hasn't been corrected on the pre 2022 models. It likely won't ever be.
 
No, the 'issue' hasn't been corrected on the pre 2022 models. It likely won't ever be.
Cheers for the heads up.
 
Have only just discovered this thread and the reported issue.

I cannot see why it matters whether the assumed speed of sound is incorrect, provided it is applied equally across all channels.

The only circumstance I can see this matters is, where one is applying some degree of post-processing, such as Audyssey, and the processing introduces differential signal delays per channel which needs to be compensated for based on speed-of-sound assumptions.

I should also add, from memory, Audyssey does something unusual to a subwoofer to try and align phase, sometimes setting it at a different distance from the seating position than is in fact the case, however, I don't use this and prefer to correct phase manually.
 
Have only just discovered this thread and the reported issue.

I cannot see why it matters whether the assumed speed of sound is incorrect, provided it is applied equally across all channels.

The only circumstance I can see this matters is, where one is applying some degree of post-processing, such as Audyssey, and the processing introduces differential signal delays per channel which needs to be compensated for based on speed-of-sound assumptions.
I made similar points before, though we don't really know if it is applied equally across all channels, even during the initial calibration. For example, if D+M use the channel with the longest delay as reference, and time aligned the other channels to it, then the speed error may matter.

Again, in my thinking, we all know the mic measures delay, not distance, so if say, Denon (or Marantz) accepts the delay information directly (as they should, but that's just my opinion) then there will be no error due to the incorrect speed as there wouldn't be conversion. In that case conversion will only take place when Denon converts it for the interface that displays distance.

However, if Denon only accepts distance, then it would have to convert the measured delay into distance and in that case, whether we run calibration with the app or directly on the AVR, the delay info will have to be converted to distance first and then back to delay for Audyssey to do the filters and time alignment as required. That's the lengthy discussion I had with Nutty667. He thinks it is better to do that double conversion so that there would be one "path" (what he called), whereas I think it is logically silly to convert for Audyssey to do its thing, when there is no need for it, but I agreed with him to disagree that there are just different ways to do things and we may not prefer the same ways.

In the end, Nutty667 is most likely correct that Denon only accepts distance and will then convert it to delay for Audyssey to do the time alignment and filters, whether I think it is silly, or not. If that's the case, then the speed error will matter unless as you said, it is applied equally across all channels, but that's another unknown and I wouldn't like to take a guess any more than I have had.:)
 
I believe this is also an issue with the avr-4520. I always wondered why the impulse peaks using REW never lined up quite right. I dont have the full 7.1 setup right now so I can't really test this fix, but I believe it also suffers.
 
I believe this is also an issue with the avr-4520. I always wondered why the impulse peaks using REW never lined up quite right. I dont have the full 7.1 setup right now so I can't really test this fix, but I believe it also suffers.
Would you kindlly post your impulse graphs so we (me anyway) can learn something? Thanks.
 
I believe this is also an issue with the avr-4520. I always wondered why the impulse peaks using REW never lined up quite right. I dont have the full 7.1 setup right now so I can't really test this fix, but I believe it also suffers.
If you have an l/c/r set up with original distances in the avr deduct the closest speaker distance from the furthest and then measure the same speakers peaks distance in rew. Multiply the first by .875 and then deduct the result from the original distance and if it matches the second measurement your avr has the issue.
 
Would you kindlly post your impulse graphs so we (me anyway) can learn something? Thanks.
I would but I can't get rew to display them all overlaid... Used to be able to I'm sure. OK figured it out again.
 

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If you have an l/c/r set up with original distances in the avr deduct the closest speaker distance from the furthest and then measure the same speakers peaks distance in rew. Multiply the first by .875 and then deduct the result from the original distance and if it matches the second measurement your avr has the issue.
I've moved house now and only have a 3.1 for now...
 
By Audyssey as well, as all the filter calculations etc are done by the device the App is running on. So, you can either change the distances in the App beforehand (much like MultEQ-X does automatically) or change them in the AVR afterwards.

As long as you change them somewhere you're good to go on the pre 2022 models.
@Jase Sorry to bring this up again but was curious if the changes are made in the AVR under "Manual Setup/Distances" should the altered 0.875 adjustments be reflected in the Audyssey "Check Results/Distances" screen?

It only shows the original unadjusted values but if altered via the MultEQ Editor app then both the "Manual Setup/Distances" & Audyssey "Check Results/Distances" screens show the 0.875 adjusted values.
 
@Jase Sorry to bring this up again but was curious if the changes are made in the AVR under "Manual Setup/Distances" should the altered 0.875 adjustments be reflected in the Audyssey "Check Results/Distances" screen?

It only shows the original unadjusted values but if altered via the MultEQ Editor app then both the "Manual Setup/Distances" & Audyssey "Check Results/Distances" screens show the 0.875 adjusted values.

That's correct. If you adjust them in the AVR after sending the file from the App you'll only see the adjustments in the 'Manual Setup/Distances' section.

The Audyssey 'Check Results/Distances' will show the original values.

If you adjust them via the App first then send the file you'll see the adjusted distances in both sections.
 
So the distances of ALL speakers and subwoofers needs to be multiplied by 0.875

I have upfiring Atmos speakers for my fronts and there is a separate distance figure for this called ‘Front Dolby’ in the ‘Dolby Speaker Setup’ section. Do I also need to multiply this distance by 0.875?
 
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So the distances of ALL speakers and subwoofers needs to be multiplied by 0.875

I have upfiring Atmos speakers for mr fronts and there is a separate distance figure for this called ‘Front Dolby’ in the ‘Dolby Speaker Setup’ section. Do I also need to multiply this distance by 0.875?

I believe that, in theory, as sound reflects off your ceiling it keeps the same speed but loses amplitude... if I remember school correctly! So that would mean apply it to that additional distance.

However, if you think of the real life complexity here you have two wide ranging sound fields impacting the ceiling. There'll be axis and off axis sound from both drivers (and both speakers). So at the point of surface impact, a huge mess of reflected waves, cancelled waves, summation... not to mention that different frequencies will be absorbed differently into the ceiling (at different amplitudes).

In other words, if it was me, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
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