Audyssey App discussion - chat about midrange compensation and post your graphs here!

P Adams

Active Member
Dear all

As an addition to my recent thread 'Worth replacing a Monitor Audio RXW12 sub with something more exotic!?' placed in the subwoofer forum, I wonder if anyone can give me some advice on the Audyssey XT32 images from the latest results I had yesterday on our system? I am a complete novice so any help would be appreciated! Below is the text from my previous thread and I will upload the Audyssey screens with this

Thank you



Hi all,

Hope you are all well and enjoying your systems while we are at home!

It’s got to that time when I’ve gone around tweaking most things in our set-up and started looking at any ‘upgrades’

Our current system comprises of Monitor Audio Silver RX8 floorstanders, Silver RX centre, Silver RXFX side surrounds and an RXW12 sub, all purchased in December 2010. They are linked to a Marantz SR7012 receiver, which in turn is linked to Rotel RMB1075 THX 5 channel power amp, which powers the front three channels. We also added two Cambridge Audio Minx Min 22 speakers for Atmos duties, placed at ceiling height, at the front of the room, above the floorstanders a few weeks ago.

At the time, we thought that there were better subs around, but the RXW12 was a good match to the rest of the speakers for its price. We previously had a REL Q150E (mark 1) for our first home cinema system.

Well, after looking through the speaker section of the forum, I started looking through the sub section with reference to BK Electronics, SVS, Arendal, Power Sound Audio, Earthquake Sound and Fyne etc. I can hear my wife groan now!

We mainly listen / watch TV and movies using an Epson EH-TW9400W projector shining on a React 2.1 borderless screen. ‘Normal’ viewing is on a Panasonic 65FZ802B OLED.

I’ve calibrated the sound with the Marantz Audyssey XT32 set-up on the receiver and also downloaded and used the Audyssey XT32 app on my iPad. It all sounds fantastic. Much more open and enveloping than the Pioneer LX83 receiver we had previously, although that sounded pretty great as well.

In a way, I’m not sure if we are missing anything in terms of movie sound or the occasional music listening on CD and streaming with the Monitor sub. But it’s probably the only thing I can think of which will be ok in terms of ‘updating’ that my wife will agree to after the fairly recent OLED and projector upgrades. :D

I’ve included a rough diagram of the room layout to help with any suggestions.

Thank you for any thoughts.
 

Attachments

Steve Webb

Active Member
2 observations from me:
Rather than purchase a better sub, I think you’d obtain a better result adding a second similar sub for a smoother response. I’m a firm believer that two good subs are better than one really good sub.
Secondly, the 250hz roll off on your height speakers seems very high. I would expect a speaker for height duties to hit 150hz at least.
 

Tingo

Active Member
Hi I am also a novice at this, it looks like you have a null starting at 100hz in your sw correction graph, I believe this can only be resolved by moving the sub. Also audyssey corrects to a flat line, this takes out some of the base, I have used the audyssey app and ratbuddyssey to create a bass boost and downward sloping curve as follows +2 db at 20 and 50hz +1 at 120hz and 0 at 1000hz which is also the frequency cutoff, I then raised the center speaker and sw volume by 1, if your avr supports the app in my opinion its worth getting.
Screenshot_20200521-194757_MultEQ.jpg
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Hi I am also a novice at this, it looks like you have a null starting at 100hz in your sw correction graph, I believe this can only be resolved by moving the sub. Also audyssey corrects to a flat line, this takes out some of the base, I have used the audyssey app and ratbuddyssey to create a bass boost and downward sloping curve as follows +2 db at 20 and 50hz +1 at 120hz and 0 at 1000hz which is also the frequency cutoff, I then raised the center speaker and sw volume by 1, if your avr supports the app in my opinion its worth getting. View attachment 1303650
The addition of a second sub would almost definitely eliminate a null.
I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the graph produced by the Audyssey app as this is what the App is aiming for not actual results.
For an accurate measurement of your sub and speaker response, you need to run REW software with a dedicated mike such as a UMIK-1.
 

Tingo

Active Member
The addition of a second sub would almost definitely eliminate a null.
I wouldn’t pay too much attention to the graph produced by the Audyssey app as this is what the App is aiming for not actual results.
For an accurate measurement of your sub and speaker response, you need to run REW software with a dedicated mike such as a UMIK-1.
This is were it starts to lose me, I don't have the luxury of being able to reposition the speakers or sw and I don't know how to use rew and only have the audyssey mic, if I sorted that out once rew tells me what is happening how do I sort that out using audyssey/ratbuddyssey. I assume rew is more accurate that audyssey is there anything in the audyssey graphs I should be looking at to adjust. My current curve is based on research on house curves and my ears. Thanks.
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
REW software measures your frequency response and is primarily used for measuring low frequencies (subwoofers), as this is where the majority of issues occur and where we can make the biggest difference through room correction/treatment. It reports the measurements in a graph similar in look to the Audyssey app, so you can see peaks and nulls (I’ve attached a copy of both for info).
I‘ve previously referenced a comparison in this thread showing the App and REW graphs and there’s not a great deal of correlation between them - the Audyssey app graph is not an accurate representation of your sub‘s actual performance, so pointless in my view.

My point is that you wouldn’t need to make any changes in the app Once you had an accurate picture from REW. Focus on improving the low frequency response rather than the whole system. The most significant improvement to your system you can make is a well positioned Sub or even better, a second sub, as this will give you the smoothest low frequency response. Then just run Audyssey and let it do it’s correction.
The only thing I would touch in the app after that is increase any crossovers below 80hz - that’s it.
 

Attachments

Steve Webb

Active Member
By the way, the REW graph I attached shows the difference between the results from Audyssey run via the App vs AVR internal software. There’s no doubt in my mind that the internal software consistently outperforms the app run software.
 

Tingo

Active Member
By the way, the REW graph I attached shows the difference between the results from Audyssey run via the App vs AVR internal software. There’s no doubt in my mind that the internal software consistently outperforms the app run software.
Thanks for the info, that's disappointing as I have 2 main listening positions some 2mtrs apart for tv and projector and use the app to change them, is there anyway to get the calibration from the avr and open it in the app.
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Thanks for the info, that's disappointing as I have 2 main listening positions some 2mtrs apart for tv and projector and use the app to change them, is there anyway to get the calibration from the avr and open it in the app.
No I’m afraid not, but a second sub would address that issue too 😉
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
No I’m afraid not, but a second sub would address that issue too 😉
If you need to separate configurations to upload each time you move from PJ MLP to TV MLP, you could always save the config file to 2 separate USB sticks and simply load the appropriate file required. It only take a few mins to load the file into the AVR.
 

Tingo

Active Member
If you need to separate configurations to upload each time you move from PJ MLP to TV MLP, you could always save the config file to 2 separate USB sticks and simply load the appropriate file required. It only take a few mins to load the file into the AVR.
Hi, does that mean I can save an avr calibration to a usb, if so what's stopping me copying it to a computer from the usb and then into the app, or is it not saved onto usb as an ady file.
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Hi, does that mean I can save an avr calibration to a usb, if so what's stopping me copying it to a computer from the usb and then into the app, or is it not saved onto usb as an ady file.
Yes you can save the file to a pc. I do just in case I need to reset the AVR. It’s not an .ady format though, it’s a .avr format so not compatible.
 

Tingo

Active Member
Yes you can save the file to a pc. I do just in case I need to reset the AVR. It’s not an .ady format though, it’s a .avr format so not compatible.
Thanks but that makes no sense to me at all it's as if another company is making the app and avr calibration software but both are audyssey.
 

tebbo65

Active Member
It really befuggles me why there is a difference in the internal v app calibration results. I know there used to be an enforced roll off at just above 20Hz using the app, which Audyssey did address via an update.
I like the app to cut the limit the correction frequency (Schroeder), disable mid range comp etc but as Steve Webb suggests the internal could be providing better results.
I've just finished installing acoustic panels so need to re-cal so will do some comparisons using my XTZ RA Pro II kit.
I did contact Audyssey ref the low end roll off and they said that was the only difference, so now they should be identical?
Denon/Marantz + Dirac Live = Wishful thinking :rolleyes:
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Thanks but that makes no sense to me at all it's as if another company is making the app and avr calibration software but both are audyssey.
They are completely different companies. The .avr file is the Denon/Marantz AVR full settings file generated by the manufacturer’s software, it just happens to include the Audyssey settings too. The crap (sorry app!) .ady file is the Audyssey file only.
 

j82k

Member
On the Denon X3600 the app produces a completely messed up reference curve and no ceiling speaker correction at all when doing 5.1.4.
I can only suggest everyone to get a umik1 so you can verify your calibration in REW, as the app is a buggy mess and you can't trust the results it shows... at least on the X3600.

Who knows, maybe other AVRs are affected by this too...

I wrote about it here:

I wouldn't be surprised if this never gets fixed and just stays broken forever... If they would just implement the frequency cut-off function for AVR calibrations I wouldn't even consider using the crappy app...
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
On the Denon X3600 the app produces a completely messed up reference curve and no ceiling speaker correction at all when doing 5.1.4.
I can only suggest everyone to get a umik1 so you can verify your calibration in REW, as the app is a buggy mess and you can't trust the results it shows... at least on the X3600.

Who knows, maybe other AVRs are affected by this too...

I wrote about it here:

I wouldn't be surprised if this never gets fixed and just stays broken forever... If they would just implement the frequency cut-off function for AVR calibrations I wouldn't even consider using the crappy app...
Do your REW measurements reflect the difference in Subwoofer results on 5.1 vs 5.1.4? I have to say I’ve never run the app without the ceiling speakers.
 

j82k

Member
Do your REW measurements reflect the difference in Subwoofer results on 5.1 vs 5.1.4? I have to say I’ve never run the app without the ceiling speakers.
Yes, 5.1.4 messes up my subwoofer,ceiling speakers and reference curve when using the app. Doing 5.1 only is fine.
I don't know if this issue exists on other AVRs than the X3600 though as it definitely doesn't affect all AVRs so it could very well be a firmware problem with the X3600.
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Yes, 5.1.4 messes up my subwoofer,ceiling speakers and reference curve when using the app. Doing 5.1 only is fine.
I don't know if this issue exists on other AVRs than the X3600 though as it definitely doesn't affect all AVRs so it could very well be a firmware problem with the X3600.
Yes, what I mean is do your REW graphs (not the app graph) reflect thIs as well? The app graph is meaningless.
 

j82k

Member
Yes of course. Without REW I wouldn't have been able to figure this out. But bugs aside the APP actually does a better correction than the AVR so it definitely uses a different correction algorithm. That is when I use the flat curve and just ignore the non-corrected ceiling speakers...
 

Steve Webb

Active Member
Yes of course. Without REW I wouldn't have been able to figure this out. But bugs aside the APP actually does a better correction than the AVR so it definitely uses a different correction algorithm. That is when I use the flat curve and just ignore the non-corrected ceiling speakers...
In what way does the app do a better correction? I’ve not seen evidence of that. My experience is that the app produces inferior correction not only to my ears but the proof is in the comparative REW graphs. And correcting the result the app produces is essentially polishing a turd!
 
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j82k

Member
In what way does the app do a better correction? I’ve not seen evidence of that. My experience is that the app produces inferior correction not only to my ears but the proof is in the comparative REW graphs. And correcting the result the app produces is essentially polishing a turd!
I did a comparison of APP vs AVR by doing a 3.1 calibration with the Audyssey and Umik next to each other. It's a 8 Position calibration but the mics were never moved during the whole procedure.

I guess the difference isn't huge but especially the Center and Subwoofer, which to me are the most important speakers seem to always turn out a bit better with the APP.

As for the <80 Hz region, that can be ignored as I had the speakers set to large. With a proper crossover these huge low-end gaps disappear.

Center:
Center.jpg

Front Left:
FL.jpg

Front Right:
FR.jpg

Subwoofer:
Sub.jpg

What's interesting is that the Subwoofer tends to be set slightly below target when doing an AVR calibration and slightly above target with the APP. Not that it matters as I usually set levels manually afterwards..
 

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