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ATI X800 or nVidia 6800 ?

Discussion in 'PC Gaming & Rigs' started by Dr.Rock, Sep 9, 2004.

  1. Dr.Rock

    Dr.Rock
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    My Asus ATI Radeon 9800XT (best graphics chipset at the time when I bought it) went faulty after four months of purchase, so the supplier is kindly giving me a refund. I can now buy a better card.

    I was pondering whether to go for the nVidia 6800GT, ATI X800XT or the nVidia 6800 Ultra, to fit my AGP slot. Any advice from anyone over recommended chipsets and manufacturers? The nVidia's support DirectX 9c whereas the ATI's only support up to DirectX 9b. Is there any difference between 9c and 9b?

    Thanks.
     
  2. CENSORED

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    Sapphire X800 Pro VIVO softmodded to enable all pipelines and flashed with XTPE bios. Saving over a legit XTPE about £80-100, if you can get hold of one.
     
  3. Dr.Rock

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    Thanks for the tip. How easy is it to modify those cards?

    My concern now is about clockspeed? Modifying the card to enable all 16 pipelines, but won't the CPU and clockspeeds still remain slower than on the XT models?

    What about the DirectX 9c support that nVidia cards give? Is that a major advantage over the 9b supported by ATI X800-based cards?

    Thanks.
     
  4. CENSORED

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    Doc,

    You have a PM.
     
  5. Kopite4Ever

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    ive had a Leadtek 6800GT for about 2weeks now and im absolutly over the moon and amazed at the level of performance! i previously has both ATi And Nvidia so im not biased but i can say best bang for buck IMO is the nvidia. its will easily over clock to ultra speeds and save a cool £100. im sure what ever card you will be happy :)
     
  6. zAndy1

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    Agreed about the 6800GT, fantastic card, easily clocked to Ultra speeds and the price is pretty reasonable considering the performance!

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  7. AML

    AML
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    I also had a 9800 pro 256 before and changed it to a BFG (maker) 6800 GT

    Its an awesome card, but still not THAT much better than my 9800 pro, just faster.

    I actualy clocked my 6800GT to Ultra speeds. Its VERY easy using the NVidia driver and "Coolbits".

    Get it now if you dont have it. Its free but i think it only works with Nvidia drivers.

    The GT only cost me $400 (US) and the BFG card comes in at 370mhz clock. Normal GT cards come in at 350mhz.
    Used coolbits to over clock it to 410mhz

    Runs slightly faster than an Ultra.

    Amazing for DOOM 3 and looks set to be good for HL2 and other upcoming games.

    As you said, it does support DX9c (already installed) but we wont see those benefits for a while. It does however give us some future proofing.

    Still the X800 series is no slouch. Benchamrks make the ATI cards look amazing.

    However, when u check benchmarks, the new NVidia cards tend to run the games better even if the Radeons show better performance in synthetic benchmarks.

    The truth is some games run better on different cards. For example, Doom 3 is shown to run better on NVidia cards where as the source engine (ie Half Life 2) runs better on ATI cards. Both cards are still amazing and you cant go wron with either one.

    What u need to decide is how much are you willing to spend and also things like availability.

    I couldnt find any decent ATI cards when i went shopping so i got an Nvidia card. ATIs loss as far as im concerned, certainly not MY loss!
     
  8. Ethics Gradient

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    I went down the ATI route since I am a hard core cs'er - and cs is still the most played internet game out there ;) ... source swung it.
    Doom bored the pants off me - and online doom / quake / unreal I will leave to the lower attention span splat monkeys - I prefer abit of team tactical play :p
    I'm not biased, me no never
     
  9. Laurel&Hardy

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    I found cs to be full of cheat hackers so I gave up. I'll leave that to the 'kings' of online gaming I think... ;)

    All I would say is that the Geforce route offers more future proofing than the ATI route. But if that doesn't bother you then either the 6800GT or X800XT are damn fine cards.
     
  10. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
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    Alot of online games have large amounts of cheaters - its all proportional.
    There are lots of servers out there provided by communities that have strict and enforced anti cheating policys - with anti cheat scanning on and off line, plus admin that patrol the servers regularly.



    ........ but ...... TBH there are far less cheaters than people actually think.
    There are a considerable amount of players out there that have 2,3,4 or more years cs experience and they tend to get called cheats where ever they go.
    It only takes one person to say "cheat" before more and more begin to question a players legitamcy - planting the seeds of doubt.
    I have seen alot of real cheaters in my time - banned many - but I have seen 100's of times more false accusations against players I have scanned / monitored / played with at lans etc that I can pretty much guarantee always play that good completely legitametly.

    Its not even massive score differentials that set people off - many players are so quick to shout cheat at the drop of a hat - just because they got shot behind a box and are not experienced enough to know the real reason they were spotted.

    If you pick random servers from the public lists with lots of players on you will invariably get a mix of newbies, cheats and idiots.
    Any players with any experience only go on these servers for a laugh - and don't play there regularly with any worry of the quality of the game.
    Most players eventually find a small list of favourite servers that are protected, have decent admins and tough policys on behaviour.

    Even on our own servers we get newer players comming on and after 3 or 4 rnds start calling everyone cheats then either leave or start team wounding in their attempt at rough justice.
    I have been called a cheat so many times it has become a joke - even with admin messages rolling across the screen declaring I am not - players still shout and scream at me to " get off the server you ******** cheating **** scum"

    Next time you go on a server and someone starts shouting cheat, think about it yourself and don't just go with the crowd of idiots. Actually watch the player - it is usually REALLY obvious when someone cheats - simply because they find hidden players does NOT mean wallhacks - try watching and seeing if the player always looks in certain places... as all experienced players do - or if they are listening for footsteps/gun fire/matching kills to radar positions before assuming they have some magic way seeing other players.

    The biggest problem cs has is that prats that go around accusing players of cheating without any sound evidence - it gives the wrong impression to others and because of its frequency , spoils the game more than real cheaters do.

    CS is full of cheats <-- cliche
     
  11. rogeralpine

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    ....whilst on the subject of 6800GT's - what's the best price for one of these babies? I'm torn between the 9800 and saving some money, or trying to justify to myself that the 6800GT was worth the extra. Seen 9800 Pro's for £135 new (£100 refurb) and the cheapest 6800GT I can find is £225 (£250 for a 256MB card).

    Any ideas ppl? ...or better still, better prices anywhere for the 6800GT? (Anychance of a price drop before Xmas?)
     
  12. AML

    AML
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    Well, If your not willing to spend the money, then a 9800 pro isnt a shabby card at all.
    It just wont be able to play newer games like Doom 3 and HL2 on high graphical settings.

    For other types of games however, it will probably do just fine. FPS demand the latest hardware coz of the way they are made. Other types of games like RTS wont need as much power and your 9800pro will work just fine.

    Still, you have to realise that a PC needs to be upgraded eventually in order to play the latest games or run the latest software.
    So, you decide.

    Do you need the card right this second or can you leave it for a while? Personaly I can afford to buy the latest cards so I did! But i know what its like to not be able to afford the latest hardware.
    And well, having a PC as a hobby can get expensive.

    You might want to try a console instead to save money! Games like HL2 and DOOM 3 will come to the XBox sooner or later!

    Anyway, I got my 6800GT for $400 (US) in the US. I cloked it up to Ultra speeds and it works just fine!
     
  13. CENSORED

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    I replaced my 9800XT with an X800 Pro. The XT is less than a year old, immaculate and never been flashed, overclocked or messed about with in any way. I haven't put it up for sale (yet) but if you make me a reasonable offer it's yours. I can always sell it through the forums if you have any qualms.
     
  14. rogeralpine

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    Censored - yg PM!!
     
  15. Laurel&amp;Hardy

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    If you don't like comments like this:

    Then refrain from comments like this:

     
  16. Ethics Gradient

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    Where as I simply made humorous comment about a preference for styles of gameplay ( hence the :p ) - your first comment seems very much to be said in all seriousness regarding cheating within a game <---- one that is a serious issue with regards to the level of online damageing myths surrounding the game.

    Its on the same lines as me saying "I don't go to France on holiday because I don't like the food and I'll leave it for everyone that wants to be a stinky garlic breath "

    ..... and you comming back and saying " Well I am not going to Germany because its full of Nazis"

    make your comments clear if they are ment as a joke
     
  17. Laurel&amp;Hardy

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    It was said in seriousness because in the early days cs had a serious problem with cheat hackers. By the time people got round to dealing with the raft of cheat hacks that were well known to be in the game, by the introduction of 'punkbuster' style anti cheat mods, I had well and truly given up on it. And I know many were found at the time as well, so I know what I say is true. It may well not be the issue it once was but the game did get a bad reputation for a while and it was justified.

    However, nowadays it is much harder to use bots. Most responsible server owners use anti cheat software and demand that you install it as a matter of course otherwise you are denied access to their servers. This is unfortunate but necessary so that those of us who never cheat can play with others of a like mind. All the people I suspected of using cheat hacks in games were found to be using them so I do know the difference between a player who is godlike by sheer skill and a player who cheats to achieve godlike status.
     
  18. gandley

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    agree with Ethics on this.(but call me a splat monkey again and i`ll kick your :censored: ass:devil: )

    I get called a cheater all the time on UT2003 coz i`ll blast the noobs all over the place. So to cover there embarresment they resort to the cheat callin.

    same with CS, some absolutly devastating players there just kill u in the first few seconds. Not much fun mind.
    I will at least try and train a few noobs on how to move etc when the servers are less busy. CS just needs to get abit more noob friendly(which is a bit l8 now)
     
  19. pmccurdy

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    That depends on the system as well, I have a P4 2.8E, 1GB OCZ, 9800pro and I run doom3 and CS: Source on 1027x768, high details, 4x anti-aliasing, etc and it runs smoothly.

    Im in the market for a new vid card as well and having a tough time deciding :D Problee a 6800GT.

    From my experience, I've had to patch, tweak games like Far Cry, BFV to make it run somewhat stable and still does ocasionally crash, it could be a problem with my vid card but a collegue with the *exact* setup as mine except he's got a 5950 Ultra, no probs running the same games. Also, looking at all the different game/support forums, I would say about 80% of people having vid card issues are ATI owners.

    Tho it doesnt make sense that Doom 3 is 100% stable and even more so is CS:Source has been 100% stable for me too and there seem to be loads of ppl having issues with that since it's also beta.
     
  20. Ethics Gradient

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    The game of CS was under constant update in terms of version levels; each revision to deal with game play, bugs and exploit issues.
    On top of that, VAC has been running and constantly updateing - the inbuilt Valve Anti Cheat system.
    VAC is not perfect and requires constant updateing ( done automated server side ), but historic hacks are slowly but surely removed from the game and wonid's caught using those hacks are auto banned from ALL vac running servers.
    Like anything else, when a fix comes in, people redevelope hacks to compensate - punkbuster VAC and all the other anti cheat systems are affected that way ... needing constant updates to keep up.
    Pretty much all online games have cheats - even online console games suffer ( modded boxes and xbox software etc )
    I have played online games includeing CS for many years - and run servers and in game admin'd for several larger sites.
    While I have seen alot of cheats, as I said before, I have seen many fold more false accustations.
    Serious players find serious servers - ones protected by anti cheats and/or proactive admins - we see very few cheats where I play. If and when they surface, they are spotted and dealt with very quickly - and added to global ban lists subscribed to by large amounts of CS server admins.
    Either you are taking a rather naive attitude thats based on bias and inxperience of net gameing as a whole in terms of where to play and what goes on ....... or you have been incredibly unlucky.

    Either way its simply not true / correct to make naive and unhelpful statements about CS and cheating........

    ........ especially as you say you played it along time ago and haven't since - thats like saying you played Pong in 1978 so you can make the statement that "all computer graphics are plain simple and bland " so haven't bothered with them since
     
  21. AML

    AML
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    After instaling Sims 2 and Call of Duty United Offensive, Both requiring DX9c, I have to say that im glad i went back to NVidia!

    The X800's simply dont have support for 9c, and thats gonna bite ATi in the ass!
     
  22. Ethics Gradient

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    'REQUIREING' ??? - you make it sound like if your card doesn't support Dx9C in terms of all features , then your card can't play the game.
    If thats the case then only peeps with GF6800's will be playing new games ;)

    Any extra features for Dx9c will not be 'required' for years - just look at the fact that you can run all the latest games on cards from 3 years ago - albeit at crap frame rates .... its processing power not features causing that.

    The newer cards offer 'additional' features - and it terms of additonal features for the latest offerings from ATI and Nvidia ... thats virtually a none starter with reference to any games available.

    Both cards can run at high frame rates with ansio and AA at high settings - thats all you need to get great graphics, lighting and crisp pictures for the time being.

    You seem to be obsessed with touting the merits of the gf6800 cards - desperate to justify your purchase ??? ( you've made alot of posts on the subject seeming to be say " I've got a gf 6800 gt - they are better than ati because ..."

    ........ your posts are becomming a tad fan-boy-ish with such comments - if you want to be taken seriously, I sugguest not feeling the need to put in "mines better than yours ner ner " comments - justified or not.

    I went for the ATI card simply because it "blows the arse off" your GF card with Source ...... but it plays perfectly well on your card doesn't it - just like my card with Doom 3.
     
  23. AML

    AML
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    LOL, dont need to go all mental on me!

    I just meant that I cant understand why ATi choose not to support 9c.
    I feel that having that support gives my card more future proofing.

    Of course the games will run on an ATi card, but any new features that 9c has, simply wont work on an ATi card!

    These are the little things that helped ATi sell lots of 9700/9800 cards back then right?

    ATi offered support for DX9 where as NVidia didnt at first and they were left playing catch up!
     
  24. Ethics Gradient

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    possibly, but I think it had alot more to do with benchmarks and overclocking with regards to gfx card sales.
    Nvidia got alot of bad press with regards to noise levels - that kicked off alot of internet community bias against the cards which affected take up.
    The 9xxx series of cards - especially the 9700 then 9800 pro / XT just piped the GF cards in performance on the benchmarks - so all over the net forums people where slagging of Nvidia.

    I went from GF 1 -> GF 3 500 -> GF 4600 ti .... I was biased against ATI for the muppetry they did with retail and oem cards - putting lower clocked chips on OEM cards meaning that I almost made the mistake of ordering a less powerfull card ( I found out just in time to cancel my order and switch it to a GF card ).
    I was planning on getting a GF6800 ultra ..... but looking at the benchmarks and power requirements I decied to try the ATI x800 instead.
    Either card offered a huge jump in performance from my gf 4600ti ..... but it was source that swung it ..... I play alot online ... and many hours of that is CS based so it was purely down to my particular useage that pushed my decision.

    Future proofing wise - by the time the differences show up between supported features on GF6800 / Ati x800 ...... we will be looking at new cards with the next generation of features that surpass anything our current cards can do --- and won't you also be looking at BX / PCI-E / 64 bit etc with new setups , gfx card connects etc.
    I have no intention of using this GFX card in my machine in 12 months - it will probably go in a seperate box and be replaced by the latest all bells and whistles PCI-E version card - that blows the socks off this ;)
     
  25. Laurel&amp;Hardy

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    Ethics, if you read what I said you would have realised I haven't played CS for at least 2 years for the reasons that I stated. I am not being naive, I have been playing FPS regularly on line since the Wireplay days on an old 56k modem. When the issue of cheat hackers came up in CS, amongst other games, nobody really took it seriously in the beginning, that is why I quit the game. I aslo stated it most probably isn't the problem it was when I was playing it, but the trouble was a lot of talk went around forums about CS and the lack of interest about dealing with cheat hackers at the time I decided to stop playing it. Sad really, even then it was so much more popular than quake or unreal multiplayer servers. Again, I fully expect that, like with Quake 3 and punkbuster, the problem of cheat hackers has been reduced. Again I stated this in my last post - players that don't cheat go to servers that are hard on cheat hackers - I am, or was one such player. This was not so easy back in the early days of CS, but I repeat I fully expect that VAC has made this a much improved situation as Punkbuster has for Quake 3 and Q2ace did for Quake 2. This was what I was trying to say in my last post - or at least I thought I was!

    Sadly I can't devote time to games like I used to, so taking up CS again is not a likely move - I'd get my butt raped so bad, and since I couldn't make the time to get good at it I'd hate it!
     
  26. Ethics Gradient

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    TBH there are not many long time CS players left on servers ( as a percentage per game )
    Mostly its new players / 1 year or less - there is a constant tide of new blood - with players not lasting more than a year ...... usually that means anyone with even a remote amount of experience can do reasonably well .... untill we appear ;)
     
  27. sanj

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    Hi AML,

    Quick question about coolbits. I've just returned from the US with a nice new BFG 6800 GT (370MHz). It's installed and up and running and I want more out of it.

    You mentioned coolbits to enable overclocking and I've got this enabled via the registry hack. What should my next steps be? I thought I'd ask your advice before I go and fry the card by doing something stupid!

    I've since selected 'manual overclocking' off of the display properties within the overclocking stuff. It ran some tests and came back with a core clock frequency of 410MHz and a CPU frequency of 1.08 GHz for the Performance (3D) setting. I will see if this is stable and I presume that I then can up these settings in small increments until I hit the top end of this cards stability?

    Ta,

    Sanj
     
  28. Hawklord

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    I wouldn't be too concerned about frying your card as the 6800 series throttle back once you've gone over the threshold and you generally start seeing the card struggle when you have reached this stage. Once you've hit this stage just clock back a few hz on the core and memory and make sure it runs stable at these speeds. I have managed 430/1150 on my Leadtek GT but usually keep it @ultra speeds (400/1100) as this is plenty good enough to run all the current crop of games on my system. As long as temps are under control and the card is stable I'd manually clock the card too see how far you can take it. Most gt's hit 400/1100 effortlessly but those with better cooling solutions (like the leadtek) tend to go slightly higher. Some people have even flashed their GT's to ultra's to default to 400/1100 on start up but when I tried it caused stability issues so I reverted back to my original gt bios.
     

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