Astra 28.2 and 4.8e

Discussion in 'Satellite TV, Sky TV & FreeSat' started by lareneg, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. lareneg

    lareneg
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    Hi there,

    We're a student radio station near London looking to set up a satellite dish to receive IRN (Sky News Radio). We would like to receive both the IRN channels (on Astra 4a) and Sky News TV (on Astra 2b), and were thinking of purchasing either an 80cm or 1m dish.

    I realise that IRN1 is available on Astra 2b as an audio channel under Sky News TV, but that comes with a delay (which has, I gather, been pretty dodgy in recent months) so I'd rather we could get IRN1 and IRN2 from Astra 4a without the delay.

    I was looking at multi-LNB solutions, and couldn't find out whether it's possible to receive the two satellites on one dish (given that they're spaced quite far away).

    We may be getting hold of a pair of satellite receivers that can produce three audio outputs from the same transport stream, and as such would have one LNB hooked up to each of them.

    Would anybody be able to advise on what size dish we'd need, and whether it's possible to get both of these satellites on it?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
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    You can get a toroidal dish which is designed for this kind of job, I think there is a Forester T90.
     
  3. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    The easy answer is to use 2 decent branded sky dishes - IRN's TP is pretty strong on 4.8e in the UK & it's only DVB S1 ... the FEC is 5/6 but you're well above the issues that can cause... sky dishes are very efficient & could beat an 80 or possibly a 1m on that spread overall
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  4. logiciel

    logiciel
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    They're easy on an 80cm dish in the north of England.
     
  5. lareneg

    lareneg
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    Thanks for the replies!

    I hadn't realised how cheap the Sky dishes were! Would a Sky minidish really be enough for Astra 4A? I've read that we should be thinking about at least an 80cm dish for that... Bear in mind that we need it to be reliable in fairly inclement weather.

    Would we be better off getting a Sky minidish for Astra 2B and then a larger dish for Astra 4B?
     
  6. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    You'll be alright with a sky dish for IRN - especially since you're in London- but not for say all of Viasat... there's quite a range of beam strengths on there.
     
  7. logiciel

    logiciel
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    Separate Sky dishes would be fine for both.
    The 80cm comes into the equation only if you want both on one dish and then as I said it would be fine - mine is.;)
     
  8. lareneg

    lareneg
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    Awesome, thanks for the help! We're talking about one of these zone 2 dishes you can get for ~£25 on eBay, right? I'm a bit of a noob with satellite stuff!
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  9. logiciel

    logiciel
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    Yes, somewhere around the £20 mark each for the two - and much the same for the one 80cm.;)
     
  10. Trollslayer

    Trollslayer
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    As long as there isn't a TV aerial as well - planning permission issues.
     
  11. lareneg

    lareneg
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    It's something we'll take up with the university before making any purchases. There's already a satellite dish on the roof, but I'm not sure who it's owned by. I'm fairly sure there isn't an aerial, as it's one of those old temporary buildings which never got removed. We'd probably be attaching them to the side of the building, above the windows of the studio (which handily face east).

    Is there likely to be issues with planning permission for this? I'm certain that a lot of buildings on campus have multiple antennae and dishes on them. I'm fairly sure that when we put our FM mast up (on a different building) there was other equipment already on the roof.
     
  12. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    Actually I meant zone 1 for both, ideally if like most you have an existing sky dish on 28e & just get another for IRN on 4.8e - you could use a zone 2 for 4.8e - that should get you the weaker Viasat channels (just as a low level measure) - installed a motorized zone 2 in Cheshire the other week & the main measure was the weaker Viasat frequencies on 4.8e which it got... IRN would have been very strong.

    When an LNB is used in offset on a larger dish it sees a vertical oval but it's feedhorn & scalar rings are designed to see a round dish (an offset dish looks round to an LNB at the offset angle it is at). That not only drops the overall surface & thus power from the dish - noise issues increase as it sees past the dish & any noise that can enter - a sky dish is very well designed - one of the best dish / lnb designs there is so for it's size it does well, on signals & low noise

    It should be installed with the skew on the middle setting & the whole dish skewed to match 4.8e's skew.
     
  13. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    If it's going on a uni building- get a big motorised if you can get the OK.. far better - if IRN moves sat again you can follow them without paying for another install plus there's 1000's of ED uses it can be put to... (& some other uses)..
     
  14. lareneg

    lareneg
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    We were just going to install it ourselves, to be honest! Surely if they move we could always just shift the dish(es) manually? From what I understand, a motorised dish wouldn't be able to get Sky News TV from 2B at the same time as IRN's feed from 4A?


    We're not using IRN at all at the moment. I was thinking of getting the zone 1 for 28e and zone 2 for the 4.8e, but the price difference isn't too great so I thought we might as well just get two zone 2s.

    To clarify, the feed from 4.8e would be the one going out on air and would therefore need to be strong all day every day. We'd only be using 28e for Sky News TV, which would be on a TV in the studio. We'd patch the audio from Sky News into the desk in case we want to use it for rolling coverage during a major event, but I think IRN usually feed audio from the TV channel on IRN2 when something big is happening.

    I suppose we could just use 28e and take the IRN1 feed that it provides, but that's been pretty dodge recently with the delay changing. I'd far rather we had the feed without the delay anyway, as that makes programming and training far easier. It'd be nice to have the IRN2 feed too anyway, adn that's only on 4.8e.
     
  15. logiciel

    logiciel
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    That's right - with a motorised dish you access one satellite at a time.
    They are useful for other things though.
    Your requirements are quite simple and simply answered.
    You can have them with either two Sky type dishes or one 80cm standard one.
     
  16. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    What frequency & audio channel are you intending using - I checked 12110H 27500 - it has 4 audio tracks - is one or more in use 24/7 or are they effectively used as feed streams & on & off all day - on at the top of the hour etc..

    and what's the output - your programming plus news/weather off IRN ?


    yes to the bigger dish for better continuity reasoning ..& you can take that further- we put bigger dishes on pubs for Sky so when it really rains heavily & sky goes off on normal sky dishes in the area .. the pubs carry on -
     
  17. lareneg

    lareneg
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    Astra 4A broadcasts the full IRN lineup with no delay:

    IRN1 is hourly bulletins on the hour plus audio cuts and sports bulletins through the hour. This would go out on air at the top of each hour, and we'd probably log a lot of the audio for later use.

    IRN2 is live coverage of parliament and press conferences. We're unlikely to use this but they sometimes broadcast something useful on it.

    IRN3 is used for the chart show on Sunday.

    I believe that IRN1 and IRN2 come out on the same audio channel in mono split left and right, and IRN3 comes through the second channel. Not sure what the other two are for!


    Astra 2B broadcasts Sky News TV, with IRN1 as a separate audio track. It comes with a 5-second delay on this satellite, which I'd rather avoid for various operational reasons.

    We'd quite like to get Sky News TV, as we'll hopefully have a TV in the studio at some point to stick the news on. We'll also route the audio from Sky News into the mixer so presenters can monitor it during breaking news between IRN bulletins if they want to.
     
  18. excollier

    excollier
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    For reference sake, I have a Triax TD88 with six lnbs ranging from 4.8e to 28.2e, and I live in the north west of Ireland. Obviously no Nordic beam channels, but good wide beam reception.
    So in England it would be easy on a 80cm dish to get those two.
     
  19. logiciel

    logiciel
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    Very easy - in north east England:
     
  20. davemurgatroyd2

    davemurgatroyd2
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    Do you have permission from IRN and Sky to retransmit their broadcasts? Although they are both FTA transmissions they are both copyright and without permission retransmission in any way is infringement of copyright and subject to legal action against you and the uni.
     
  21. winston2010

    winston2010
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    You are saying a Sky dish beats a 1 metre dish. Rubbish.
     
  22. logiciel

    logiciel
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    No, he isn't saying that:
    ;)
     
  23. pedro2000uk

    pedro2000uk
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    As above & what Logiciel has said -for clarity, a Sky dish can beat an 80cm or even a 1m when the LNB or LNBs are used in extreme offset - - 28.2e to 4.8e is quite wide but you can go much further but for the POs use, continuity has a higher priority than seeing how wide can you go- an lnb in offset sees not an 80cm or 1m dish but but a vertical oval shape that is smaller than 80cm or 1m depending how far the offset is off middle.

    Added to this is the fact that the amount of noise getting into the LNB increases the further you go into offset as on a standard LNB, it's feedhorn & scaler ring design is designed to see a circle (an offset dish in normal offset) or a horizontally oval dish in the case of a Sky dish's LNB and not a vertical oval.

    Added to this is that there are a lot of poor 80cm / 1m dishes compared to the quality of a Raven Sky dish & the design & relationship of a Sky LNB to it's dish.

    You can & do get the situation where a decent Sky dish can beat a rubbish 80cm or 1m dish on all relevant quality measures in normal use - that is quite common.

    & you can say a Raven Sky dish beats an 80cm or 1m ....

    ... on wind speed survival.
     
  24. kylerickards

    kylerickards
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    Hi

    Is it possible to listen to the news feed from either Sky or IRN via satellite? I have a regular satellite dish, on 28.2 and just wish to listen to the 'on the hour' feed as a learning experience.

    Thanks
    K
     
  25. lareneg

    lareneg
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    We didn't end up going with IRN, but when I was looking into it I tried it at home using a Sky Digibox we already had lying around to check that we could get it fine on commodity hardware. You just have to add the channel details manually and it appears as an additional channel on the menu which you can tune to on your TV. I can't see any issues with listening to it out of personal interest, but obviously using it on air in any capacity is a big no-no and is seriously inadvisable without being licensed to do so...
     
  26. kylerickards

    kylerickards
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    Hi

    Thanks for the reply. This is just something for me to learn with and not for broadcast. Would I have to use a satellite box (I have a Humax and a Fortec Passion satellite boxes) or is this something you can listen to on net?

    As said, it's just so I get my timings right and things.

    Thanks
    K
     
  27. lareneg

    lareneg
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    Yes, most satellite boxes let you add "hidden" channels AFAIK. You'd need to look up how to do it with those boxes, although it might be fairly obvious. With the Sky one I used it was in the settings somewhere. The details of the channel you need to add can be found fairly readily on Google...
     
  28. logiciel

    logiciel
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    What has this to do with 4.8E?
     
  29. lareneg

    lareneg
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    If I recall correctly, 4.8E carries both IRN1 and IRN2 with no delay, and 28.2E carries IRN1 only along with the Sky News Channel (with a delay -- last time I used SNR it was 5s but it had changed with little warning which threw a load of stations)

    It would be preferable for stations to take a feed from 4.8E, as there is no delay so presenters can just hit the top of the hour and cut to the news, whereas on 28.2E they'd need to factor in the 5s delay. Then if the delay changes it messes up the playout systems. And for stations who need IRN2, they have to take a feed from 4.8E.

    Last time I used SNR was over a year ago though, so it may have changed.
     
  30. kylerickards

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    Admin

    I'm sorry, should I start a new thread? I was just trying to find out how to listen to IRN1?

    Kyle
     

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