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Aspect Ratio On Lord of The Rings

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by slde, Dec 19, 2004.

  1. slde

    slde
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    Good evening hardware excited minds of the 21st Century and beyond,

    Was wondering if anyone knows why on my 32inch panasonic 100hz widescreen TV, with the ratio on 16:9, and the DVD player output also on 16:9, does The Lord Of The Rings still have black bars above and below it? Whats more.... the black bars are 2 or 3mm wider on the left side of the screen! Why is this?
    I do not want to use the zoom settings to get it to fill up the whole screen because the original ratio is altered. Most other films I have will take up the whole screen... and i find it hard to believe that a film like Lord Of The Rings,(which I am playing from the PAL directors extended version DVD) is supposed to be watched like this on a widescreen TV!

    Can anyone help or explain why this is?

    Many thanks
    Dave C :confused:
     
  2. LV426

    LV426
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    ...why....does The Lord Of The Rings still have black bars above and below it?
    Here we go again.........

    LOTR was made for the cinema. Where screen sizes and shapes aren't fixed. It was made with an aspect ratio of somewhere around 2.35:1 (i.e. width = 2.35 x height). This was the choice of the director.

    You are watching it on a TV with a screen shape which IS fixed - at 16x9.

    Q: How do you fit a 2.35:1 shaped image into the 1.77:1 (or 16x9) shape of a TV screen?

    A: There are three ways to do it:

    1: Crop the left and right sides off, missing out part of the film.
    2: Distort the whole thing vertically
    3: Put it in the middle of the screen, at it's correct shape, and fill out the spare height with some plain black bits. Nothing is missing and everything is the right shape.

    For some reason (see if you can guess what) the makers of this DVD (and many, many others) have chosen method c. Which I fully support.

    the black bars are 2 or 3mm wider on the left side of the screen! Why is this? Because you are watching this on a CRT TV, right? The type of TV that produces the "Best" picture.......except that picture geometry on CRTs is rarely accurate. It's a maladjusted TV that's making your black bars uneven.
     
  3. slde

    slde
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    Thanks Nigel. I totally agree that option 3 is the way to go and YES I am watching on a CRT TV - the panasonic TX-32PM11 Quintrix. When you say a "maladjusted TV," do you mean that I can make the adjustments to correct the black bars being 3mm out, or is this a factory fault? I must admit that the majority of films I have watched on ANY CRT screen have this problem with the black bars being a few mm out.

    Your Thoughts?
     
  4. slde

    slde
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    isn't it the DVD player that generates the black bars and not the TV?
     
  5. Barrovian

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    Yes, but it's the TV that's displaying the picture, and it's the CRT TV geometry that's slightly out of kilter, hence the 'bendy' black bars. If you were to conect your DVD to an LCD or Plasma, I'd be willing to bet the black bars would be perfectly straight.
     
  6. Laurel&Hardy

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    That'll be the goemagnetic effect of the earth then. Isn't the Panny fitted with a rotation adjustment?
     
  7. Laurel&Hardy

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    Correct - CRT does produce the best picture. No, it won't be geometrically perfect, no CRT is, but unlike plasma and LCD it will be 32 bit colour, the picture will look a damn sight better and a good CRT will last longer than ANY plasma or LCD.
     
  8. LV426

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    Don't agree with your first point. It all depends on which shortcoming or artefact bothers you most. For me, geometry should be perfect; convergence should be perfect; the picture should be stable, free from movement other than what is in the signal, and flicker free; and immune from magnetic interference. It's wholly a matter of opinion. Mine is that the "best" picture is not produced by any commercially made CRT. As for longevity - it's hard to be sure since they haven't really been around long enough - but my guess is that the majority of LCD displays will outlive pretty well anything else currently available.

    To be wholly accurate, the black bars aren't being "generated" as such - at least, not any more so than the rest of the picture.........the are recorded on the disc; they are part of the video signal, along with all the rest of the image. However, as John Pickles says, the signal will be perfectly shaped; it will be the TV that's making a flawed job of displaying it. You may be able to get it adjusted; you may find that it is considered to be "within tolerance". I have seen 5mm quoted as manufacturers' tolerance. Too much, IMO.
     
  9. slde

    slde
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    I agree. 5mm is just ridiculous as a quoted "within tolerance" threshold. I mean, 1 or 2mm bothers me and I can only really see that when I go right up close to the screen and give it a proper inspection.

    Do you mean I should take it back to where I bought it or do you mean that I should just adjust the geomagnetic rotation settings? I don't really understand this properly, but I would hazard a guess that depending on where you are on the globe, the image could require rotating a bit from zero to get it level?

    One thing that I have also noticed is a physical defect, which i'm sure is a result of mass production. I noticed that the actual display area of the tube/the tube itself doesn't appear to be set perfectly level in TV housing, in that if you look along the top edge of the screen (not the image), the black gap between the housing and the screen appears to get bigger towards one side. I thought it was my eyes at first, but I went down to Currys and there are literally hundreds of TVs on display that appear to be the same - more so than not so! Now i'd like to hear what people have to say about this because if it is a result of mass production then it's literally pot luck whether you get a perfect one or not which I think makes the CRT industry completely flawed. Obviously most people won't even notice these few 'rogue' millimeters, but I do!
     
  10. Laurel&Hardy

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    So, you sit with your nose in front of the screen then...

    5mm horizontal (left to right) distortion from normal viewing distance on normal picture is almost impossible to see unless you have a clear reference point or the distortion occurs within a very short distance. Tilt is a little different, 5mm can be seen from a distance but I would not accept this anyway. The geometry issue is almost meaningless unless you watch test slides all day or the actual error is big, and for vertical errors it has to be more than 5mm. Convergence is a little different. Anything over 0.6mm starts to become visible to the eye but even then, unless you view test slides or have static objects to reference with, you simply won't notice it at normal viewing distance. I can live with small geometry flaws - what I can't live with is no true black (LCD), complete lack of reliablilty or longevity (plasma) and no true 32 bit rendering on either format. Colour fidelity is far more important than perfect geometry and, whilst purity issues do affect CRT their colour rendition and ability to render right down to black without any need for software trickery totally outsrtips both LCD and plasma. These elements are far more important than 2-3mm of geometric error - I cannot stand watching either LCD or plasma trying to do dark shades, using active dithering to try and fool me into believing it's actually achieving a colour it can't. It looks hideous.

    LCD's are not as reliable as you think. Pixel dropouts are common and the cold cathode backlight yellows with age. Even after just 3,000 hours of use the difference is pretty noticeable when you compare to a new one, and replacement of those is not easy or cheap. With CRT, after 3,000 hours you can barely notice anything unless it's been seriously abused with static peak colour images on maximum contrast for hundreds of hours at a time.
     
  11. LV426

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    Like I said - "best" is a matter of opinion, not of fact.

    What I would say (in defence of the need for better, or even, perfect, geometry) is that you no longer need to be studying test cards. Modern broadcasters use on-screen graphics ad nauseam. For news-tickers and the like across the bottom of the screen, a 5mm tilt will be quite visible. Likewise letterboxed movies. Channel logos show up voltage regulation "bounce" beautifully, as does "pillar-boxed" 4x3 material on 16x9 tubes.
     
  12. Laurel&Hardy

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    I have already said that I would not accept 5mm tilt, so that is not up for debate.

    But 'best' is not just my opinion - it's is backed up by pretty much every serious magazine that reviews AV kit. The line usually goes 'if you want the best picture then CRT is where it's at'. I've read it in several mags and after looking at both LCD and Plasma in lots of depth I happen to agree with them. In technical circles concerned with audio visual nobody takes either LCD or Plasma as serious contenders to take over from CRT - they see them both as 'gateway' technologies, i.e. the next generation of flat panel formats, one of those possibly being SED, there's also an LED based format being worked on by Sony I believe, will be the ones that finally take over from CRT as the display media of choice. Yes, CRT has its issues, I've not hidden or denied this, but the majority of those are piffling when you compare it to the short lifespan of plasma, the lack of black on LCD and the complete lack of true colour on both formats, especially in the audio visual field. Any good CRT will minimise the effect of eht regulation - my mate's 36ZP18 has almost no eht effects to speak of, especially when you set the contrast/brightness and colour up properly, and not just defaulting to the dreaded reset 1. The images are simply stunning and I've not seen a single LCD panel that matches it. Additionally, my 51WH36 is superb on DVD's, and people I know who were going to buy plasmas for DVD replay actually went out and bought 42 and 51WH36's after seeing mine in full swing, even though they fully realise that rptv's do take a bit of looking after. They were totally sold on the hype surrounding LCD and Plasma, and just couldn't believe their eyes when they saw just what CRT was capable of.

    If you're going to spend hours of your day measuring your TV rather than actually sitting back and enjoying what it does then you may as well not bother. All formats have their issues - CRT's main one is geometry, but a good one has so few geometry errors that it isn't even worth measuring let alone talking about and poorly set up tubes are in the minority when you consider the tens of thousands sold every month. LCD's main gripe is black level and colour fidelity. Plasma is poor reliability/longevity and relatively low light output when run at real world settings. Plasmas and LCD's suffer from pixel dropout. If you don't have any blocked pixels on your CRT the chances are you never will. No format is perfect. But for me the most important thing about watching a TV is what the WHOLE picture looks like, not just a few geometric flaws I'm never likely to notice while I'm watching what I watch most often - DVD's. I look at colour rendition, the dynamics, how natural it all looks and I've not seen a single flat panel come close to a CRT in these aspects, which to me are the most important. What's the point of having a geometrically perfect image if all you can see in dark areas of the picture is some active dithering circuit attempting to con you into thinking it's achieving shades of colour it can't naturally achieve on its own? I've looked at the latest panasonic LCD's and Plasmas - the Plasma screen is claimed to render 1 billion colours yet I could still see active dithering at work in the darker scenes - admittedly reduced, but still there all the same and it was completely absent on the PD50 also on display. Why do you need such a trick if your screen can achieve 1 billion colours? Simple answer, because in reaility it cant!

    I would love to lose the behemoth box I have stuck in my living room - it takes up lots of space and dominates my living room, which at almost 6 metres long isn't exactly small. There's nothing I'd like more than to hang a flat panel on my wall and open up the living space a bit more. But what stops me is that CRT still does the best picture and until that changes I'll stick with them in spite of their considerable bulk.
     
  13. slde

    slde
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    I dunno y'know. I went down comet and currys and most of the CRTs in there seemed to have the tubes installed slightly slanted (see my last message), most only by about 1 or 2mm, but some it was a lot more.
    Then again, im not sure to what extent my eyes are playing tricks on me.

    All I am concerned about is our CRT. To my eyes it looks like the tube IS slightly slanted, but only by about 1mm and i'm a bit worried that if I call someone out from the Panasonic Centre to check it out then they will just laugh at me or just think i'm a little bit strange. What would they do to correct that 1mm anyway?
     
  14. LV426

    LV426
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    Whatever.

    You are wholly entitled to your view. And I am entitled not to share it.

    Everything you say about "properly set up" (etc etc) is quite right. It's the getting there that's the problem, as our thread originator has noted.

    I won't be swapping out any of my various LCDs for any CRT, prone as they are to numerous artefacts that are constantly visible.
     
  15. Laurel&Hardy

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    And LCD's aren't?????? Every time I look at one all I see is active dithering and motion blurring to greater or lesser degrees.

    Whatever, you are also entitled to your opinon, but you clearly choose to ignore the many, far more fundamental problems LCD has, which are also constantly visible.
     
  16. LV426

    LV426
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    Yes, I do.
     
  17. slde

    slde
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    Nigel/LV246,

    A couple of things:

    1) What are your opinions on what i mentioned in my last post?

    2) What is "voltage regulation bounce" ?


    Cheers,

    Dave
     
  18. LV426

    LV426
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    slde: I can't comment on the physical installation of the tube in the case, except to say that it seems unlikely, given the huge weight of glass in any large CRT, that the tube could be mounted anywhere other than where it's supposed to be.....but I don't know for sure.

    That's not to say, though, that the image being projected onto the front of the tube is being projected straight. It's quite common for CRTs to have their deflection coils either badly positioned or maladjusted, and this can cause tilting and/or other geometry flaws. These things CAN be adjusted to a point. On modern TVs, via a service menu.

    Voltage regulation "bounce": At the risk of drawing your attention to something your set almost certainly has, but you perhaps haven't noticed before.......

    Most CRT TVs have their power supplies designed to be only just adequate (or actually, borderline inadequate) for the job - as a cost-cutting exercise. Poor voltage regulation is thev direct result. It manifests itself where the brighter a given part of the picture is, the larger it will be. It isn't curable. You may see this in either or both of the following ways (examples):

    a) watching a 4x3 image with black bars left and right - the image alternates between bright sky above dark land, and all dark. When the bright sky is on view, there is a kink in the left and/or right hand vertical edge of the picture - it bows outwards at the bright part

    b) watching a music video (or anything else with a lot of rapid change of brightness) with a logo in the corner - the logo isn't fixed in position - it bounces around as the overall brightness of the image changes.
     
  19. Tight Git

    Tight Git
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    Otherwise known as "Forum Syndrome". :laugh:

    Happy Christmas, Nigel. :thumbsup:
     
  20. slde

    slde
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    Ok thanks for that Nigel.

    I've made adjustments with the geo-rotation settings to get things like Lord Of The Rings perfectly straight, but like I said, I think its the tube that doesn't look straight. Perhaps the inacurracy could be the black border that is painted around the outside?
     
  21. Laurel&Hardy

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    That isn't unusual. Some tubes are deliberately made this way for reasons I can only guess at. But it should be symmetrical and not all on one side.
     
  22. slde

    slde
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    the thing is... if i get a technician round we're only gonna have an argument about whether there's a fault or not. It's impossible to measure because its behind the glass and you can't get your ruler/spirit level parallell with the edge.

    arrrgghhhghhh
     
  23. Zaichik

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    I'm not sure that I would agree with the earlier comment that a 5mm flaw in geometry isn't noticeable. I've just had my 5th TV delivered and, although at last I have one with no major faults, the geometry is worse than all of the others. Most of it I can ignore (or adjust in the service menu) but the picture bends upwards by about 2 or 3mm in the top left hand corner. It is really noticeable on DVDs which have black borders, and on Sky News, whose logo is badly bent. As far as I am aware, this can't be adjusted, so I guess I'm stuck with it.
     
  24. slde

    slde
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    Went to the Panasonic centre to discuss the build quality of my TV with them. Explained to the guy in there that the tube appeared to be 1 or 2mm offset in the housing. He said "I've never heard of that before" at which point I thought "Wait a second mate, you've already got my money so why don't you just admit it?" We walked around the shop so i could show him what I meant and there was a perfect example right on the shelf - the tube in this one was a lot less straight than in mine and a very obvious build fault. Unsuprisingly, he denied that he could see anything wrong with it but said he would come round and have a look at ours (which isn't as bad as this one in the shop!).

    My advice to anyone buying a CRT, or ANY electrical item whatsoever is to see the actual unit you are going to walk out of the shop with working before you buy it. Mass production is a potential ruiner!


    Nigel - This voltage regulation, is this what i see where lighter colours meet darker ones and the light colours appear to 'move' ? Logos in the corner of the screen tend to 'shimmer'

    Zaichik - What sort of TV have you had 5 of?
     
  25. LV426

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    No - not shimmering. The entire size of the on screen image is slightly larger when it's brighter, smaller when it's darker. So the logo (say - or anything else that is meant to be static) moves outwards - away from the centre of the tube, when the overall image content is bright , and inwards when it's dark.
     
  26. Tight Git

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    A couple of downsides to that:

    (1) Larger "nationwide" stores tend to despatch from a central warehouse.

    (2) If you do insist on the one in the shop, it may have been on display for weeks.
     
  27. slde

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    Cheers Nigel.. I understand what you mean now. My PC monitor does that all the time......

    What's the shimmering then? Like I say, its apparent where the light colours meet dark, eg: where the white letters of the Sky Digital channel bar meet the blue background. I went down comet and all the CRTs do this.

    Tight Git - It's a shame that the larger stores do that. I'd like to imagine you can view the actual unit you are going to walk out with :)

    The funny thing is, after spending considerable time reading these forums you end up going into a shop and asking about something the sales-person doesn't even know about! I suggest every Dixons, Curries, Comet, etc etc make it so their staff are compulsory members of AV forums!!!! :D
     
  28. LV426

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    I think you are describing Dot Crawl. I can't say what causes it.
     
  29. Laurel&Hardy

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    Dot crawl is often seen on analogue terrestrial (aerial) or composite video input on the TV. This is because the whole signal is on one single input so there are compromises on what is eventually seen. It should not be seen on S-Video, RGB or component input due to their discrete input system.
     
  30. slde

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    Whats the best way to hook up all the equipment then? At the moment I think we've got it all interconnected with scart leads. Is there a noticable improvement on this sort of thing with other methods?
     

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