Artifacts - using FFdshow

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by Steve.J.Davies, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Have been using FFDSHOW (with MPC), upscaling to 1920*1080 with good results but some articfacts remain and have me beat (not difficult, video processing is not my techno bag..)
    Attached is an example cut from a frame captured from the end title sequence of Final Fantasy. have similar effect in other films but this seems to 'really' show them.

    can anyone help with an explain of what they mean ? the techno behind them ? some clues ?

    TIA
     
  2. LeJimster

    LeJimster
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    Strange almost seems as if those areas are not deinterlaced properly.
     
  3. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Yep but as its only localised has me beat.
    This is an extreme example. I get the same kind of things in other films but not as extensivley as this example shows. Can get it on eyes, hairline, window frames, straight edge things. Get it in places in House of Flying Daggers.

    am puzzled.
     
  4. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Post this just for completeness and in case it lives in the fturw.
    Final Fantasy shot was of NTSC version.
    Here is a HOFD shot that is from a PAL version.
    Same artifacts. same issue.
     
  5. dannyg81

    dannyg81
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    Does it do this only with FFDShow applied... and are you using FFDShows own de-interlace settings?! I know in my version there's quite a few de-interlace methods built into FFDShow and all of them give varying results, and aren't as good as Theatertek's or WinDVD's for example.

    It definitely does seem like an interlace problem... or thats the only plausible explanation for it atleast.
     
  6. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Thanks for the feedback.

    No - not using ffdshow deinterlace.

    will play more. maybe compare it with GeeXbox output...
     
  7. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Have rewoken this old thread rather than start another..

    Just got some R1 disks which I put on hard disk using DVD decrypter.

    Played them in media player classic with ffdshow (as in the thread above).

    one (box) set - MONK - gave the de-interlacing artifacts as in the thread above, and a lot of them at that
    the other (box) set - SG-1 Atlantis - just blew my flippin socks off with picture quality. Not a trace of these bugbear de-interlacing artifacts and a whammo good golly goodness picture to boot. Best I have ever seen from the software so that was it I had proof my set up could produce great pictures,
    So after thinking it could have been source material related I saw sense and put a VOB stream from each through Graphedit.
    The good picture goes into 'MPEG-2 Splitter' and the dodgy picture goes into 'MPEG-2 Demultiplexer'. after that the streams go through the same sequence boxes/fllters as each other. So I reckon this is the kiddie that is spoiling things for me.
    trouble is clicking in Filter Properties after right clicking on these boxes in graphedit tells me the requested filter property page could not be shown - for both the splitter and de-mulitiplexer.
    Can anyone tell me how to find out what these actually are - and wether its safe to nuke the de-mulitiplexer one ? or disable it it some way ? and if so how ?

    Have attached (in zip format) the graphedit graph (.GRF) for those that have this software.

    TIA
     
  8. pRot3us

    pRot3us
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    It would be better to post a screenshot of graphedit as we need exactly the same filters as you have (in use in the graph) or graphedit won't let us open the file ;)
     
  9. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Good tip.. Sorry 'bout that.
    Graph scrolls to the right so will have to play with the sucker a bit to get it 'sceenabledumpabletoapic'.
    Will have to tackle that this weekend.

    Of course the underlaying puzzle is still there - why and how does this choice get made. Have Radlight Filter manager installed and have read up the m/s page in MPEG-2 demultiplexer but that just shows what calls need to be made.

    grrr arrgh
     
  10. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Just a quick alt print screen and paste into Irfanview.

    Still bugs me that the 'splitter'' and 'demultiplexer' are not actual filters ( I think).
     
  11. pRot3us

    pRot3us
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    Hmm, I'm no expert on filter graphs but theres a hell of a lot going on in that graph, I'm sure it shouldn't be taking such a complex rendering path. The fact that there are multiple instances of the ffdshow video decoder seems suspicious (unless this is representing different tasks being applied by ffdshow, but i haven't seen this with my setup)

    I'd post my .vob filter graph but graphedit is refusing for some reason at the moment :confused:

    If I were you I'd try uninstalling then reinstalling ffdshow
     
  12. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    DOn't forget that the GRF show two path for two video streams.

    FFDSHOW multiple boxes correlate to number of ticked 'processing boxes' use in the FFDSHOW. use less options you get less boxes or at least I did when I ran tests to determine this.

    The crucial difference seems to be the splitter and the demuxer. picture quailty just amazingly different. As both paths are the same after this stage I don't think its FFDSHOW related. How to influence it (permanently as the default) for any invocation of MPC (or any other player) seems to be at the nub.
     
  13. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    ..but your post made me think that it may be the way that FFDSHOW was rendering the stream as opposed to MPC. so...
    With Graphpedit you can connect to a running process so ran a good stream in MPC and then a bad stream and got graphedit to save the GRF files. For some reason saving them was okay but trying to reload these saved files failed.
    Got screen shots however.
    These look quite different from the graphs created when Graphedit rendered the streams !! Only one occurence of FFDSHOW which is goodness.


    But...they are the same as each other...


    grrr arrgh
     
  14. dannyg81

    dannyg81
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    The only thing I've seen thats similar to this on my setup when upscaling dvd's are vertical lines, as opposed to horizontal. I think it's caused by the resizing algorithms used by FFDShow (lancoz usually) as extra pixels have to be created where none exist, so you get an imperfection in the picture (duplicate pixels etc). These artifacts aren't always present, I can see them on certain scenes with certain colour on colour, or close ups of faces every now and then. I have noticed that the better the dvd quality and bit rate, the less these lines appear. If I play a high def source though, none of these artifacts are present what so ever.

    One thing I might try is viewing dvd's through Theatertek and using the Nvidias post processor to see if this also causes the same effect. One thing I am certain of though, is these artifacts are definitley caused by the upscaling process.
     
  15. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Thanks for that. will down load some bit rate analyzer gizmiods and have a prod.

    Its definately at the DVD level - no change in settings.

    But the conflict in filter order between graphedit rendering itself and connected to MPC made me seek else wher for corroboration.
    Ran Gspot and it gives me the same as the Graphedit rendering (Elecard and mult ffdshow) !!

    So which is true ? how can I know. This seems to be in one of the less well documented areas of M/S (directX).

    joy.
     
  16. dannyg81

    dannyg81
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    Well to be honest, when it comes to figuring out graphedit and how it connects specific filters to certain pins can be a real PITA. You see direct show filters have the clever ability to seek appropriate filters where none may be predefined... how it determines the best filter to use is still a mystery to me, it may be a list search and the first compatible filter gets used.... or it could randomly search until a suitable one is found! Who knows!! Thats why troubleshooting using graphedit can be a bit of a head scratcher.
     
  17. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Yep, been reading up on it.

    its the way it contradicts itslef (and Gspot) when connecting to the running MPC that makes me think that Grahedit is not tickety boo - that or maybe its just Bills implementation and poor documentation that causes this 'variety'.

    Will have another poke around for tools - though Gspot tends to have a good name so may just rely on that.

    Assuming the 'elecard' path is the correct one I may play with the settings for that to adjust the feed to FFDSHOW.

    I can see me having to use a backup HD with a clone of my system on it so I can butcher it down to the minimum. but that would be a lot or work and not sure I have the time - nor that I will get the benefits with all the underlying windaz weirdness that seems to be going on.
     
  18. pRot3us

    pRot3us
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    The next most obvious thing to try would be a different mpeg decoder/splitter. Is there any reason you that you want use the Elecard decoder? There are much better ones out there.

    Oh, another good tool is Windows XP Video Decoder Checkup Utility

    It lets you see all the mpeg2 decoders you have installed, which is the preferred one and also lets you change which is the preferred. :)
     
  19. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    WIndows Checkup utility says it can't find any !

    However other tools that I now have (Codec Sniper, Sherlock, Graphedit) can find stuff.

    The difference could be related to the fact that I don't run all the MS services that get turned on by default and DECCHECK is looking for one that isn't started but nothing in the event logs indicates that.

    I didn't choose Elecard specifically, its the one Gspot and Graphedit pick when rendering the stream themselves. Apart from these artifacts on some disks the picture pretty good. And with no artifacts blows my socks off.
    The bug bear here is that when I use Graphedit to connect to a running MPC its show a different set of graphs.

    have looked at media for bitrate info (MediaInfo seems detailed but looks like it has a bug when it derives play time of VOB) and there isn't much to shout about for a difference in bitrate between artifacted pic and non-artifacted - I love the web I just invented a word - and on some Vobs there is nothing at all to shout about in MediaInfo, but there is when I play the things....

    I think I have to go to a spare disk and butcher a copy of my windows system down to nothing to really find out - but that would take hours !!

    Grrr arrgh

    First off will remove Graphedit(s) and all their components and re-install a recent one - I have builds 041201 and 011008


    Footnote addition - just found http://www.trombettworks.com/directshow.php this may help others when trying to use Graphedit.
     
  20. Xeonic

    Xeonic
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    Believe it or not, there is method in graphedit's madness.. Each filter has a "filter merit" which is in fact a priority setting and determines which one is used in any situation. Its possible to update the merit to increase/decrease its priority to preferred/normal/unlikely/do_not_use e.t.c
    Search for merit on MS site for much much more on this.

    That's the easy part(!) Each app will use its own decoder - even if that decoder is lower priority or unregistered! Also by default most apps set their decoder to preferred, which means if more than 1 is installed its a merit draw :rolleyes: IMHO Elecard takes over every decoder it can, so you've got to manually edit the merit of other decoders so they are used instead.
     
  21. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Thanks Xeonic, Was up on those aspects. Have a utility to change merit (or should I call it weighting).
    Will play with Decoder choices when I have sorted this environmental level stuff out.
    If there is a method to its madness do you have any idea why its shows different a graph when connecting to a running MPC as opposed to the one it draws when rendering itself (this latter one also the one that GSpot comes up with). Thats just an anomaly too far IMV


    Can always build a custom graph with graphedit - in fact its surprising just what you can build by doing that...I bet that will all go away with HD and Vista..
     
  22. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Thought I was getting somewhere...
    Have found out why the Graphedit graph produced when connected to a running MPC was different - it just shows the path for the sound I think. At least I managed to get the same graph by getting graphedit to parse a VOB-0 file.
    When I display the used filters in MPC when running a dvd I see no sign of Elecard codec. Suspect that MPC is overriding it but..
    Have got hold of process explorer from the sysinternals website - free and plenty of detail.

    It shows that qdvd.dll is the real consumer of CPU when running MPC. this is a M/S module. I suspect that its usage goes up due to way it gets called and it isn't just passed raw data to splat out the other side - not tried to look into its interface yet - assuming that that is possible.

    I think some planned ecperiments with MPC setting is my best next port of call.

    It is a slow drudge.
    For anyone that wants them a few useful URLs (among many..)

    http://home.hccnet.nl/h.edskes/finalbuilds.htm
    http://www.mperfect.net/mceDirectShow/
    http://www.codecguide.com/faq.htm
    http://directshownet.sourceforge.net/
    http://www.free-codecs.com/index.htm
    http://www.sysinternals.com/
     

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