ARTICLE: What is Micro LED?

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by Phil Hinton, Mar 3, 2019.


  • Page 1 of 2
    1. Mar 3, 2019 at 12:32 PM
      Steve Withers, Mar 3, 2019
      #1
      Steve Withers

      Steve Withers
      Reviewer

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2009
      Messages:
      9,906
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Location:
      AVForums
      Ratings:
      +9,531
      • Thanks Thanks x 13
      • Useful Useful x 3
      • Like Like x 2
      • List
      Steve Withers, Mar 3, 2019
    2. Mar 3, 2019 at 1:13 PM
      thewhofan, Mar 3, 2019
      #2
      thewhofan

      thewhofan
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Jan 30, 2008
      Messages:
      755
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      66
      Ratings:
      +338
      Many thanks for the article. I would have thought the biggest problem to overcome for Samsung's modular design would getting every module to display the same. For current TV tech, we always hear how every TV even after calibration displays colours slightly differently due to tolerances within the components. If they don't solve that problem then you will just have a TV with a patchwork look so having invisible seems won't even matter.
      Still, can't wait to see what each manufacturer brings to the table in regards to Mircro LED. The future of TV is looking bright. 10,000 nits bright to be exact.
       
      thewhofan, Mar 3, 2019
    3. Mar 3, 2019 at 1:38 PM
      EndlessWaves, Mar 3, 2019
      #3
      EndlessWaves

      EndlessWaves
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Apr 7, 2008
      Messages:
      13,726
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Location:
      Norfolk
      Ratings:
      +2,490
      LED displays are a mature technology that's been around for commercial displays for years, and reducing in size all the time.

      They've reached the point where a couple more shrinks could make them practical for TV use.

      This isn't a new technology like OLED being built from the ground up, but an existing technology where production techniques are becoming capable enough to move into the home.

      Modules are a common approach to LED displays because commercial installations often need to fit a space rather than being a fixed aspect ratio.
       
      EndlessWaves, Mar 3, 2019
    4. Mar 3, 2019 at 1:46 PM
      Abacus, Mar 3, 2019
      #4
      Abacus

      Abacus
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Jan 19, 2015
      Messages:
      669
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      67
      Location:
      Torbay
      Ratings:
      +437
      Bring it on
       
      Abacus, Mar 3, 2019
    5. Mar 3, 2019 at 2:41 PM
      Smith2004, Mar 3, 2019
      #5
      Smith2004

      Smith2004
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Mar 28, 2004
      Messages:
      1,572
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      66
      Ratings:
      +185
      Looking forward to this technology maturing. Risk of burn-in is the one thing that puts me off OLED
       
      Smith2004, Mar 3, 2019
    6. Mar 3, 2019 at 4:13 PM
      gadget man, Mar 3, 2019
      #6
      gadget man

      gadget man
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Apr 17, 2010
      Messages:
      253
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      43
      Ratings:
      +124
      Sounds great on paper but modules how can you hide the joins.
      Will be very expensive at first me thinks another decade before you can get excited about this technology.
       
      gadget man, Mar 3, 2019
    7. Mar 3, 2019 at 4:18 PM
      Achillus, Mar 3, 2019
      #7
      Achillus

      Achillus
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Mar 6, 2012
      Messages:
      386
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      46
      Ratings:
      +166
      Modules are actually not the way Samsung should put this technology on the markets. It's going to be very difficult to calibrate individual small panels in to one where you can't see colours differences. Just make one big panel of different sizes to avoid not only colour calibration difficulties but also it would eliminate as much possible visible screen lines where normally the small panels comes together.
       
      Achillus, Mar 3, 2019
    8. Mar 3, 2019 at 5:00 PM
      encaser, Mar 3, 2019
      #8
      encaser

      encaser
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Mar 15, 2001
      Messages:
      4,215
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      Suffolk/Essex
      Ratings:
      +1,887
      The introduction of wide angle tech is going to be a useful brake for manufactures to hold LCD over OLEd and then miniLED to give them all time to try and perfect microLED.
      MicroLED may be revolutionary but it's proving not essential just yet.
       
      encaser, Mar 3, 2019
    9. Mar 3, 2019 at 6:31 PM
      heinz57, Mar 3, 2019
      #9
      heinz57

      heinz57
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Dec 21, 2006
      Messages:
      60
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      8
      Ratings:
      +16
      It will be interesting to see how, with a modular design, Samsung overcomes the issue of pixels / resolution being fixed, given that any resolution is determined by the number of visible pixels on screen.

      So using 4K resolution as an example (3840 x 2160) how many pixels will each individual panel have? For the sake of argument let’s say each panel consists of 384 x 216 pixels. That means you are going to need 100 of them to make a 4K screen.

      Now the size of the panel will be fixed - let’s say 10cm x 10cm - so that means 100 of them will give you a physical screen size of 1m x 1m; which is great, BUT that is the only physical size you are going to get in 4K using those panels.

      If you want a bigger / smaller physical screen than that then you are going to have to have different sized panels, which seems to defeat the purpose of having the panels in the first place.

      Or am I missing something......
       
      • Like Like x 1
      • Agree Agree x 1
      • List
      heinz57, Mar 3, 2019
    10. Mar 3, 2019 at 6:33 PM
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
      #10
      Paul7777x

      Paul7777x
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Jul 23, 2016
      Messages:
      2,764
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      North east. U.K.
      Ratings:
      +924
      I absolutely love the idea of a whole wall being a screen.

      Also, the ceiling, all walls and the floor.

      It would take some processing, but the possible environments to live in would be immense.
       
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
    11. Mar 3, 2019 at 7:35 PM
      Derek S-H, Mar 3, 2019
      #11
      Derek S-H

      Derek S-H
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Jan 2, 2005
      Messages:
      3,459
      Products Owned:
      2
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      164
      Location:
      Brighton
      Ratings:
      +2,298
      Sorry Paul, I just funnied your post not because I thought it was ridiculous, but I had this image in my mind of an entire room being a screen and you could put the ceiling on the floor and the floor on the ceiling.

      Or have it moving about as if you were on a choppy sea. Or you were flying in the air.

      The vomit potential is high with this one!
       
      Derek S-H, Mar 3, 2019
    12. Mar 3, 2019 at 7:41 PM
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
      #12
      Paul7777x

      Paul7777x
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Jul 23, 2016
      Messages:
      2,764
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      North east. U.K.
      Ratings:
      +924
      I agree... also, imagine a manically psychedelic affair going an after a big night out.
       
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
    13. Mar 3, 2019 at 7:58 PM
      dr no, Mar 3, 2019
      #13
      dr no

      dr no
      Moderator

      Joined:
      Mar 30, 2004
      Messages:
      12,710
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +7,191
      I’m struggling to see the modules coming to market as a genuine consumer product. I just don’t think it will be polished enough
       
      dr no, Mar 3, 2019
    14. Mar 3, 2019 at 8:01 PM
      noiseboy72, Mar 3, 2019
      #14
      noiseboy72

      noiseboy72
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 24, 2011
      Messages:
      5,883
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Ratings:
      +1,682
      I've been working with LED screens since the first generation 16mm pitch outdoor screens (That's 1.6cm between LED clusters!!) We're now down to about 0.9mm for indoors and 1.6mm outdoors. Brightness of about 1000 Nits is quite possible, but we normally end up running them at much lower power levels as it can be quite retina burning at that level for larger screens... We can still get over 100 trillion colours out of them (according to the spec sheets!!)

      Calibrating panels is normally not an issue. We used to try and get panels that were all within a specific serial number range, so that we knew that the LEDs were sourced from the same batch, but with the current generation, the difference in colour balance between panels is generally excellent and certainly beyond the ability of the human eye to see any difference. Barco's X Range is one such example and is now being used as primary displays in power stations and other mission critical applications.

      The resolution thing is interesting. I do foresee a not too distant future where you will apply a screen in a similar fashion to wallpaper and resolution and processing will be sufficiently advanced that any image will be displayed at well beyond its native resolution with minimal artefacts.

      To see a really excellent LED screen, check out the Piccadilly Circus installations or the Intu shopping centre screens. The colour balance, brightness and uniformity of these is just stunning and shows what Micro LED might well be able to do in the home in the coming years.
       
      • Useful Useful x 5
      • Like Like x 2
      • Thanks Thanks x 1
      • List
      noiseboy72, Mar 3, 2019
    15. Mar 3, 2019 at 8:36 PM
      mt1980, Mar 3, 2019
      #15
      mt1980

      mt1980
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Jun 4, 2017
      Messages:
      60
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      8
      Location:
      Manchester
      Ratings:
      +19
      Can imagine the posts on here..

      So, I just got a magnifying glass out and noticed I have 3 micro pixels stuck, do you think John Lewis will exchange it. I can't see it normal viewing but I know it's there.:rotfl:
       
      • Funny Funny x 6
      • Like Like x 2
      • List
      mt1980, Mar 3, 2019
    16. Mar 3, 2019 at 8:49 PM
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
      #16
      Paul7777x

      Paul7777x
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Jul 23, 2016
      Messages:
      2,764
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      North east. U.K.
      Ratings:
      +924
      It could be polished enough. As with most things technological, once it can be done then refining it to top spec takes intense effort, research and experiment. And therefore, lots of hard cash.

      I agree it seems a huge task at the moment to me at least, and only the engineers will have any idea of its eventual success. And the bean counters whether or not they can sanction the outlay. I hope so.
       
      Paul7777x, Mar 3, 2019
    17. Mar 3, 2019 at 10:26 PM
      Scotland11, Mar 3, 2019
      #17
      Scotland11

      Scotland11
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Sep 28, 2016
      Messages:
      94
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      18
      Location:
      Glasgow/Fuengirola
      Ratings:
      +50
      The potential of Micro LED excites me far more than 8K but there is no hint of a timescale for delivery. I don't really like the modular idea but as a screen technology it seems to be the best way to have true blacks and the brightest of images along with wide viewing angles and no burn-in. HDR without any scaling. Sounds good. Just hope the manufacturers can surprise us and launch something in the next year or two.
       
      Scotland11, Mar 3, 2019
    18. Mar 4, 2019 at 7:24 AM
      davidcrofter, Mar 4, 2019
      #18
      davidcrofter

      davidcrofter
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 4, 2010
      Messages:
      2,545
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Ratings:
      +1,006
      Yep I think it is complete fantasy if Samsung think that they can produce consumer TV's using this process. It just won't happen because once you spot the seams then that is solely what you will be focussing on even at regular viewing distances ... that is before we even get into dead pixel territory.
       
      davidcrofter, Mar 4, 2019
    19. Mar 4, 2019 at 7:36 AM
      Har-One, Mar 4, 2019
      #19
      Har-One

      Har-One
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Jan 16, 2009
      Messages:
      4,877
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      167
      Location:
      UK
      Ratings:
      +2,916
      Another possible issue is assembly. Most typical users, no members from this forum, have problems connecting devices. Joining panels might be a step too far for many. A friend of mine got a DVD player as a present because had none, asked me to help to get it connected. There was a Panasonic DVD recorder already that out-spec the present.

      I find it exciting but they will need to convince the general public.
       
      Har-One, Mar 4, 2019
    20. Mar 4, 2019 at 8:32 AM
      stevelup, Mar 4, 2019
      #20
      stevelup

      stevelup
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Aug 13, 2002
      Messages:
      6,755
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      Swindon
      Ratings:
      +1,263
      P0.5 LED panels now available which is beginning to get interesting for home use.

      You could do a 3840x2160 display at 1.92M x 1.08M which is 87" diagonal.

      Spectacularly expensive though!

      Or, if you went for P0.67, you could do a 4K display at 116" diagonal which is a decent size for projector replacement.

      So this stuff already exists, right now. Myself or Noiseboy could install one in your home next week.

      What Samsung et al are working on is turning it from an expensive and somewhat bulky commercial product that requires a certain degree of capability to install and commission, into a cost effective plug+play solution that will look sexy on your wall.

      The sizes / pixel pitches they have demonstrated are not actually that ground breaking.
       
      stevelup, Mar 4, 2019
    21. Mar 4, 2019 at 10:51 AM
      ivagiglie, Mar 4, 2019
      #21
      ivagiglie

      ivagiglie
      Standard Member

      Joined:
      Jan 18, 2017
      Messages:
      26
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      3
      Location:
      Southern Germany
      Ratings:
      +8
      @stevelup @noiseboy72
      Very interesting reply guys, thanks for adding so much info!

      Quick question: are single "RGB pixel blocks" easily addressable on the firmware/driver level?
      I mean, if a single led burns out or is stuck, by simply disabling that specific 3-led block you would be able to minimize the impact, basically the block would be black and naturally dithered by the other blocks around it.
       
      ivagiglie, Mar 4, 2019
    22. Mar 4, 2019 at 11:14 AM
      Stinger69, Mar 4, 2019
      #22
      Stinger69

      Stinger69
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Jun 8, 2006
      Messages:
      750
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      66
      Location:
      Lincolnshire
      Ratings:
      +250
      One thing that concerns me is how these 10,000 nits will be used. Please film producers/directors, no full white screens at full power, or cameras pointed straight at the blazing sun. I know I'm quite sensitive to very bright lights, but even with my Sony XF90 at very conservative settings there are times that hdr is quite painful. For me anyway. When done well with specular highlights etc it can look stunning though.

      Andy
       
      Stinger69, Mar 4, 2019
    23. Mar 4, 2019 at 12:31 PM
      Roohster, Mar 4, 2019
      #23
      Roohster

      Roohster
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Jul 1, 2004
      Messages:
      4,475
      Products Owned:
      7
      Products Wanted:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Location:
      Derbyshire
      Ratings:
      +5,183
      10,000 nits is ridiculous.
      According to Google, The Sun is only 5,000 :p
       
      • Wow Wow x 2
      • Thanks Thanks x 1
      • List
      Roohster, Mar 4, 2019
    24. Mar 4, 2019 at 12:40 PM
      Paul7777x, Mar 4, 2019
      #24
      Paul7777x

      Paul7777x
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Jul 23, 2016
      Messages:
      2,764
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      North east. U.K.
      Ratings:
      +924
      Out of interest, what would it cost for the best currently available, at say 87” to be installed domestically?
       
      Paul7777x, Mar 4, 2019
    25. Mar 4, 2019 at 12:45 PM
      mjcairney, Mar 4, 2019
      #25
      mjcairney

      mjcairney
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Oct 26, 2003
      Messages:
      7,234
      Products Owned:
      2
      Products Wanted:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      137
      Location:
      Airdrie, Scotland
      Ratings:
      +1,051
      I see lots of comments in previous posts about how could Samsung join individual panels together with no visible lines on the end product, and how they would be able to calibrate them properly to ensure no patchwork quilt effect? I have no doubt they are pouring in billions of South Korean Won (bearing in mind that GBP1 = approx SKW1500) to ensure that those problems are negated, else they will never sell their product).
       
      mjcairney, Mar 4, 2019
    26. Mar 4, 2019 at 12:50 PM
      stevelup, Mar 4, 2019
      #26
      stevelup

      stevelup
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Aug 13, 2002
      Messages:
      6,755
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      1
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Location:
      Swindon
      Ratings:
      +1,263
      I'll get a quote just for amusement. It will, for sure, wear out my zero key when typing the answer.
       
      stevelup, Mar 4, 2019
    27. Mar 4, 2019 at 1:48 PM
      davidcrofter, Mar 4, 2019
      #27
      davidcrofter

      davidcrofter
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 4, 2010
      Messages:
      2,545
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      136
      Ratings:
      +1,006
      I'm doing all right, getting good grades
      The future's so bright, I gotta wear shades
      I gotta wear shades:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
       
      davidcrofter, Mar 4, 2019
    28. Mar 4, 2019 at 5:44 PM
      RomanATT, Mar 4, 2019
      #28
      RomanATT

      RomanATT
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Nov 5, 2015
      Messages:
      87
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Location:
      Ljubljana, Slovenia
      Ratings:
      +28
      aha .. for that ... who is than producing the best sun glasses to watch the TV. Thanks god there would be no need of super, hyper sun protection cream or milk.

      Theoreticaly what means 10.000 nits for our eyes in some fast changing pictures on our TVs?
       
      Last edited: Mar 4, 2019
      RomanATT, Mar 4, 2019
    29. Mar 4, 2019 at 6:43 PM
      mt1980, Mar 4, 2019
      #29
      mt1980

      mt1980
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Jun 4, 2017
      Messages:
      60
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      8
      Location:
      Manchester
      Ratings:
      +19
      There's only so bright I'd want a tv. My oled is uncomfortable when it goes from a dark to light scenes.
      The main benefit of this tech is oled level blacks without the risk of burn in. I don't want to substitute the burn in from my screen to burning the sky sports logo onto my eye balls.:D
       
      mt1980, Mar 4, 2019
    30. Mar 4, 2019 at 7:12 PM
      EndlessWaves, Mar 4, 2019
      #30
      EndlessWaves

      EndlessWaves
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Apr 7, 2008
      Messages:
      13,726
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Location:
      Norfolk
      Ratings:
      +2,490
      I think you missed half a dozen zeros off it there. For example this wikipedia article says it's 1,600,000,000 nits which seems like more believable value.

      10,000 is certainly bright enough to be annoying if abused, but walk outside on a sunny day and much of the world will be reflecting those levels of light.

      It might be an idea for some rules on advertising to be brought in though.
       
      EndlessWaves, Mar 4, 2019
    Page 1 of 2

    Share This Page

    Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Accept Learn More...
    Dismiss Notice