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Article: Has OLED reached its peak?

sagaris99

Well-known Member
Its nothing "rightly" in demaged panel.
And if you notice that small square then for shure other burn in will folow.
The retailer and the manufacturer will rightly not be interested if the image retention you find is not visible on the panel for normal content, because fundamentally it is not damaged. It would be labelled as part of the ageing process of the tv.
it may be different in Germany, but in the UK, that will be thr line that a retailer and LG will (and has) taken.
 

mad steve

Well-known Member
But if you dont notice burn in for 2 first year when you still have warranty later one you can throw TV in junk 😁😁😁😁
So its better to test it and repport to LG in that time period....
Yeah I see what you mean, but Iv stopped all forms of checking panels now when I buy a new tv.

If I can’t see any issues without hunting for them I won’t go looking for them.
 

MEGATAMA

Active Member
Yeah I see what you mean, but Iv stopped all forms of checking panels now when I buy a new tv.

If I can’t see any issues without hunting for them I won’t go looking for them.
If this panel defects dont progres over time i agree with you but burn in is progresiv,i had just one small square before now i have on 6-8 places on screen....like is becoming more prone to burn in over time and now its burning in much faster then in first 1.5 year.
 

MEGATAMA

Active Member
The retailer and the manufacturer will rightly not be interested if the image retention you find is not visible on the panel for normal content, because fundamentally it is not damaged. It would be labelled as part of the ageing process of the tv.
it may be different in Germany, but in the UK, that will be thr line that a retailer and LG will (and has) taken.
Dont agree,if couple burned/stuck pixel on display are reason for new panel then for shure is this where burn in logo is made from hunderds or more pixels.
 

Easybourne

Active Member
I’m interested in what the energy use /environmental impact of this pursuit of peak brightness is. I opted for plasma based on this (as well as picture quality...) The logic being that if there’s a backlight on all the time that is merely shuttered, you’re burning energy even if looking at a black screen... Yes each individual pixel on a plasma consumes more energy than an LCD pixel, but there isn’t a constant backlight.
Obviously, the advent of more dimming zones is mitigating this in the case of LCD. I assume OLED, lighting up only the necessary pixels improves this further. So, like plasma, the self-emitting technologies are probably more eco-friendly (with the not insignificant benefit of better blacks).
BUT...this increased brightness equates to more energy use and I can foresee the day where legislation and not technology will be the ultimate arbiter. I suspect 10,000nits will never happen in consumer sets.
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
Speaking of plasma, I’m temporarily using my old PX60 from many years ago.
Was shocked to feel the weight of the 48” (and it’s stand) compared to my 65” oled, it’s a 2 man lift v the 65” that I could handle myself...
 

sagaris99

Well-known Member
Dont agree,if couple burned/stuck pixel on display are reason for new panel then for shure is this where burn in logo is made from hunderds or more pixels.
You can disagree all you like, but that is the current state of affairs in the UK, I've seen it first hand multiple times. If it doesn't affect the ownership of the product, it is declared 'in spec'. The same 'in spec' message gets touted when users complain of banding or dead pixels - there is a judgement call made by an engineer. If the issue is not deemed to be seriously compromising normal viewing, it will be rejected. Showing the engineer your yellow screen with the odd faint green splash will likely not be accepted.
 
KRP 600A now in its 12th year no burn in picture looks great, gonna side step OLED unless it dies and move to Micro LED when its ready for primetime
 

MEGATAMA

Active Member
You can disagree all you like, but that is the current state of affairs in the UK, I've seen it first hand multiple times. If it doesn't affect the ownership of the product, it is declared 'in spec'. The same 'in spec' message gets touted when users complain of banding or dead pixels - there is a judgement call made by an engineer. If the issue is not deemed to be seriously compromising normal viewing, it will be rejected. Showing the engineer your yellow screen with the odd faint green splash will likely not be accepted.
Had B6,got banding after big pixel refresh....got option to take another tv or my money back and choose this B7.
In 4 day they will come to pick up this B7 so in couple days we will know how will this end.
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
Perhaps I should have been a bit clearer in my post. I was not suggesting OLED cells don't "wear" over time. LG themselves state their panels have a half life of 100k (30k for the previous gen).

I was responding to a specific post, putting forward the linear cumulative wear theory that is very much a forum theory. Hence my example that questioned if there's any evidence 60 consecutive minutes of CNN a day is the same as 2.5 minutes an hour (which is still 60 minutes a day).

And in the alternative if it were, then why arent we all seeing a complete mess on a solid colour slide, because none of the content we watch is truly random.

Certain content (tickers) and possibly panel variation (LG admitted to rtings some are more susceptible to burn in) results in the OLED cells not following the expected half life curve.
I should have been clearer too then. :) It was LG themselves stated that cumulative wear was linear i.e. that, say, 1 hour a day of a static element for 10 days would result in the same decay as 10 hours of the same element for one day. So this isn't just a forum theory.

As you say content isn't truly random. A good example of that is the central section of the CNN image in RTings burn in test on 2017 OLEDs. An area that appears to match a human shape e.g. a brightly lit reporter on a less brightly lit background, has burned in after about 5,000 hours of use. It is the best example of burn in from non-random pixel use that I have seen that isn't related to banners or logos.



After 13,000 hours it looks like this. This is a magenta slide and magenta is made up of red and blue so a blue area indicates that the red subpixels have faded.



And here is a red slide showing the same bad news:



On the one hand you could say that burn in of non-static elements has taken at least 5,000 hours to show up for a TV station with very non-random elements and that RTings set the brightness level at max for this particular test.

On the other you could counter that this content is entirely SDR. Wear appears to increase exponentially with brightness levels - according to what I can find out about OLED emitters themselves. Therefore, if you watch a lot of HDR content (a high proportion of what I watch is streamed and available in HDR) then you could hit this issue with non-static elements much sooner.
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
I’d assume you have to show any issue within normal use otherwise it’s not really an issue.
Tint/banding should be easy to capture (edit - as clearly shown above) although depending on the supplier, some may hide behind the in spec excuse while others will action.

I like the idea of the modular micro led design, but I’m assuming by the time it’s hits our level of pricing (enthusiast pricing) will it be at a set screen size and if there are bands tint, maybe those modules could be swapped out (although getting new ones to match could be a future issue :) ).
It is nice to dream of a 2:35:1 screen in the dream cinema room, maybe extra wide for gaming and so on, need to puck some lucky numbers tonight in preparation ...
 

sagaris99

Well-known Member
Had B6,got banding after big pixel refresh....got option to take another tv or my money back and choose this B7.
In 4 day they will come to pick up this B7 so in couple days we will know how will this end.
I don't see how that is relevant to what we've been discussing, but ok
Hope for the best
 

mad steve

Well-known Member
If this panel defects dont progres over time i agree with you but burn in is progresiv,i had just one small square before now i have on 6-8 places on screen....like is becoming more prone to burn in over time and now its burning in much faster then in first 1.5 year.
I total with you on you should check. But Iv suffered Burn in and stated I would never buy an LG Oled again.. After the ruddish they gave me.

Trouble is Oled is so good in a dark room I just had to get a new one..Panny GZ950. But the risks are there and people should be aware of them.
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
Looking at my old Plasma last night, those what I thought had been inky blacks didn’t look inky black any more compared to what I am now used to with oled.
Any original Samsung oled owners on here, I’m interested to hear your comparison thoughts on wrgb if you have moved on from your rgb panels
It’s disappointing to hear the issues Samsung may be facing regarding QD Oled and life expectancy, hopefully they can iron that out as I’d like to be considering it for my next tv before micro comes along.
 

milano j

Active Member
l really wanted a OLED TV late last year for movie viewing only may l add= 4k discs/streaming so no cable or gaming,but there was one stipulation and that was the screen size 75"- 77" at that time they were upwards of £7000 no panel tv is worth this amount of money especially when you could get a stunning 75"LCD panel tv for less than half the price of a 77" OLED,so price plus the Stigma of the OLED screen put me off.
Imagine paying over £7k for a 77" OLED only for it to develop screen burn...l would be on suicide watch....if that happened
 

5to1

Well-known Member
I should have been clearer too then. :) It was LG themselves stated that cumulative wear was linear i.e. that, say, 1 hour a day of a static element for 10 days would result in the same decay as 10 hours of the same element for one day. So this isn't just a forum theory.

As you say content isn't truly random. A good example of that is the central section of the CNN image in RTings burn in test on 2017 OLEDs. An area that appears to match a human shape e.g. a brightly lit reporter on a less brightly lit background, has burned in after about 5,000 hours of use. It is the best example of burn in from non-random pixel use that I have seen that isn't related to banners or logos.



After 13,000 hours it looks like this. This is a magenta slide and magenta is made up of red and blue so a blue area indicates that the red subpixels have faded.



And here is a red slide showing the same bad news:



On the one hand you could say that burn in of non-static elements has taken at least 5,000 hours to show up for a TV station with very non-random elements and that RTings set the brightness level at max for this particular test.

On the other you could counter that this content is entirely SDR. Wear appears to increase exponentially with brightness levels - according to what I can find out about OLED emitters themselves. Therefore, if you watch a lot of HDR content (a high proportion of what I watch is streamed and available in HDR) then you could hit this issue with non-static elements much sooner.
Who was it from LG that said that? It would be good if one of the reviewers would ask one of their engineers next time they get a chance.

I've seen the rtings pictures, but the figures burned in arent really random content. You pretty much have someone sitting there most of the time. So it's not much different then the ticker. Yes the ticker may be there for the full hour, but the person was probably there for 90% of that hour as well.

If wear is linear regardless of intervals, then I'd expect some other observations. For example people that watch a lot of movies should be seeing the areas of the screen that normally have black bars being significantly brighter. It would be really obvious before too long. Everyone should be seeing head shaped dark patches in the centre of the frame. And as I said in my previous post, once you've clocked enough hours a solid colour slide would look an absolute mess.
 

MahaRaja

Member
This year major companies should have released Mini-LCD sets but instead it's business as usual by LG,Sony and Panasonic, we know LG's LCD Tvs are not highly regarded. I know some Chinese brands have released some Mini-LCDs but don't trust them to deliver.

Can't see where LG will go from here with their beloved OLED, it's end of the road, when these big companies make Mini-LCDs from next year with much better contrast then currently with LCDs, then the game will be up. And when Micro-LED does finds its way in the next 3-4 years, what will LG do? making budget OLEDs for consumers.
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
Who was it from LG that said that? It would be good if one of the reviewers would ask one of their engineers next time they get a chance.

I've seen the rtings pictures, but the figures burned in arent really random content. You pretty much have someone sitting there most of the time. So it's not much different then the ticker. Yes the ticker may be there for the full hour, but the person was probably there for 90% of that hour as well.

If wear is linear regardless of intervals, then I'd expect some other observations. For example people that watch a lot of movies should be seeing the areas of the screen that normally have black bars being significantly brighter. It would be really obvious before too long. Everyone should be seeing head shaped dark patches in the centre of the frame. And as I said in my previous post, once you've clocked enough hours a solid colour slide would look an absolute mess.
LG US had the statement about cumulative linear burn in on their web site. I only found out about it because at the time (possibly 2 years ago??) I was also reading AVSFORUM (the US version of AVFORUMS)
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
This year major companies should have released Mini-LCD sets but instead it's business as usual by LG,Sony and Panasonic, we know LG's LCD Tvs are not highly regarded. I know some Chinese brands have released some Mini-LCDs but don't trust them to deliver.

Can't see where LG will go from here with their beloved OLED, it's end of the road, when these big companies make Mini-LCDs from next year with much better contrast then currently with LCDs, then the game will be up. And when Micro-LED does finds its way in the next 3-4 years, what will LG do? making budget OLEDs for consumers.
I don't see mini-LCD as a great leap forward over existing FALD sets. 3 years ago we had sets like the Sony ZD9 with around 1,000 zones and now with mini-LED we are looking at getting sets with around 5,000 zones. Smaller zones should reduce blooming issues with FALD sets (I have a Sony ZD9) but only by making the blooming area smaller. I don't see how smaller zones increases contrast ratios as nobody has yet claimed that mini-LED sets will have inherently higher brightness. (The ZD9 goes up to around 2,000 nits.)

For the next few years (3 or 4?) it still looks like OLED will be the best Tv technology available at consumer prices. By the end of that period we will probably have micro-LED at consumer prices i.e. £3k to £4k for a 65" set.

Also remember that LG have a huge head start in building large scale production facilities. For example, LG are aiming to sell 6m OLED screens in 202 - that is twice the number that they sold in 2019. Such an increase in supply may also lead to lower OLED prices.

Additionally factor in that Chinese manufacturers are going to be producing their own OLED displays soon. The extra competition is likely to spur more innovation and yet lower prices.

Lower prices are not necessarilly an issue for LG. If the source of the lower prices is lower production costs then as long as they maintain the same profit margin they are no worse off as a business than with higher prices.

Where OLEDs are held back is by the lifetime and brightness of the organic emitter compounds. There are lots of companies working on improving these compounds to get much brighter and more efficient organic compounds. If these companies can make that jump by the time that micro-LED comes along then micro-LED may well have a fight on it's hands.

However, when I was reading about research into these compounds a couple of years ago, it seemed to be assumed that the problems would be solved over the following couple of years. A couple of years later and these next generation emitters still seem to be some way off. So it is not clear whether OLED will be able to significantly improve before micro-LED is the consumers best choice.
 
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RMP888

Member
Cumulative wear is not just a forum theory. LG US themselves stated that pixel wear/burn-in was cumulative - which was quite surprising at the time. Would need to search on the US based AVSFORUMS to find a reference to the page on LG US website. I read the LG US web page at the time (a couple of years ago I think) but have not seen it since. Anyone else have a reference to it?

Cumulative wear seems reasonable given that the OLED emitter compounds lifetime figures are assumed to be cumulative. For example, Cynora one of the companies working on next generation OLED emitters had a blue emitter in August 2018 that had an LT95 of 15 hours at 750 nits. That means after 15 hours at 750 nits, the emitter's maximum brightness would drop by 5% to 95% of its original level.

Interestingly, LG's own website even recommends not watching 4:3 or 21:9 content if you want to avoid "image retention". Note that LG don't mention the terms "burn-in" or "pixel wear" anywhere on their website.

on this US site LG do mention Burn In

I think it was in this thread where someone mentioned that if LG provided warranty coverage for burn-in then most noise around this subject would disappear and I agree with that. Asking if LG had considered extended warranty coverage for burn-in might have been a good question to ask a LG at CES 2020?

Samsung provide a lifetime burn-in warranty. It is understood that this warranty is for QLED, which I thought couldn't get burn-in, which means this is an indirect poke at OLED.
 
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Unopinionated

Active Member
A 5 year warranty for all TVs regardless of the problem (not just burn in) seems fair to me. We need to start pressing for a 5 year warranty for every TV manufactured whether it is an LED or an OLED. If the LED and OLED manufactures won’t give a 5 year warranty for their TVs we need to sue them. If a TV doesn’t last for 5 trouble free years then it is not fit for purpose.
The good thing about a warranty like this is that it would get rid of the poor quality TV manufacturers. We could bankrupt Vizio, Hisense, RCA, Westinghouse, and Element as they would have to repair or replace over 20 percent of their TVs. Even Sony, Samsung, and LG would have a hard time as their failure rate is around 10 percent in the first 5 years. It is time TV Manufacturers start paying attention.
 

Unopinionated

Active Member
Many members have spent thousands of hours on AVForums discussing how scared they are of OLED Burn In and/or not being covered by a warranty. At that rate it might be more cost effective to just spend the 5000 pounds buy a 77 inch OLED TV and relax. It all depends on what your times worth. There comes a time when hours of worrying or discussing OLED Burn In isn't a productive use of your time. Sometimes you just have to let things go.
 
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Consoled

Novice Member
In answer to the above comment, Organic LED is not capable of hitting much more than 1000 nits, which is the real issue. Microled can technically go to 4000 nits or higher, which is the future. 8K + Dolby Vision mastered at up to 10,000 nits are key components of all future display technologies, that's if they wish to remain relevant that is.
Let's not spread too much FUD about OLED. Yes there's the static logo retention issue but most 2019-2020 sets/manfucturer have ways to minimize it with AI via pixel dimming.

As far as nits go IMO 1000nits is pretty eye searing already and it is really based on scene and overall type of content.

I think LED manufacturers are using FUD to win consumers over because they can't compete on black contrast levels.

Personally I would take hard clipping at some very bright scenes with true inky blacks any time. So I will keep my OLED until microled proves me wrong and sold at similar price level.
 

hal1000

Member
So Steve how do you think the future of OLED thread is going, oh yeah, it's turned into a burn in thread - what a surprise LOL.

I have an LG E6 65" OLED and have had it on almost everyday for the last 3 years and never unplug it from the wall - as of yet - no dead pixels or burn in guess I'm lucky or maybe you should check this out :)

My opinion is that OLED has peaked at least in terms of NIT'S it's a fundamental problem with the underlying tech, that's why micro led is the future.

Get a good OLED with Dolby Vision there great, but just make sure you don't leave it on a static HDR picture, ticker, logo or menu all day, it's pretty much that simple or wait 5 years and get a microled display. LCD is OK in a bright room, but OLED will beat it to death when it comes to picture quality with the right lighting in the room. How do I know, because I have both and my Samsung 4K HDR QD TV (NOT AS GOOD), brighter maybe, but the LG with DV content, is just WOW and beats my Samsung all day long.

From the horses mouth so to speak.

Another way to go is to go big and that means 82" and above, which is a different story, at least at an affordable price, but that requires a different thread. Big is good, but current PQ standards on larger (average consumer price models), leaves a lot to be desired.

The future for consumers is OLED, for at least the next 2 years at least in regard to the mid to higher end of the TV market, especially in the 55" to 65" market place. They won't be beaten by any other affordable tech when it comes to picture quality. 8K may sound good, but unless you go big, then the difference is hardly worth the extra expense or even noticable by the average user. LCD, dual cell, nanocell, QD and even mini-led etc, it's all just marketing hype in many respects for LCD.

Going brighter is all well and good, but the trade off is control of all those Nit's, which is why OLED will always be better, until microled becomes an affordable consumer reality.

Also brighter backlights consume in general more power and pump out more heat, something to keep in mind. Self emissive displays cut out the middleman so to speak and so in general will always be more power efficient.

I'm not saying mid and high end LCD's won't sell, THEY WILL, but it won't be because they beat OLED on picture quality, it will be based more on price and most likely marketing. Plus of course the great bogey man scaring the public off buying them, called burn in :)

Just my 2 cents.
 

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