Arendal 1961 or Kef Q series

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Phone. Thinking about say if I bought a flagship everytime to modernise (this is what my process I think I would follow), I wouldn't change often as certainly add another one below to get onboard DD/DTS decoding)

Pro logic avr £1500
Then add dvd player using built in DD/dts decoder( or add Denon avd-2000)
Newer avr with hdmi £1800
Newer avr with hd audio, HDR and 4k £2000
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Emotiva bas-x.7 channel is £800 and probably slightly better than a flagship AV. Probably not the massive jump but benefit of being seperates so you could reuse as other channels another system etc

You could get avr plus one of those using that for mains or surrounds (which frees up power for remaining) or buy a combination to get 11 with at-300.

Or Denon 3700 with emotiva xpa three channel for front three.

You have lots of options it really depends long term plans how much you're into the hobby.

Simplest would be a avr.

Extreme layout would be trinnov altitude 32 AV pre amp with eleven monoblocs,.or even double that to go bicamping, with getting speakers concerted with active crossovers like Linn aktiv, with a stereo analogue pre amp /or stereo pre amp with room correction and with HT bypass and stereo dac

With anything in between those two.

Personally I wouldn't buy a flagship avr you're paying £2000 and within couple of years the hdmi section is missing features you want...ie with 120hz vrr at 4k all those expensive avr and AV pre are now worthless as people want it for console gaming. So you have to buy new flagship avr to get same Poweramp quality as before losing money on a perfectly good Poweramp avr section.


Even my new AV pre is already out of date but at least I can replace that if I want console gaming, and it wasn't insanely expensive.

Arendel are also 4 ohm speakers, mine are also, I found 4 ohm speakers a bit woeful when driven by avrs.

I'm using 5 X 300, 2 X 200 and 4 X 70w power amps ( four amp boxes) I can change the AV out anytime and I still have the amps. Those 200/300 beasts will outclass any flagship avr, and will keep for 20 years.. I've changed my AV pre from

Audiolab 8000s, then 8000q with 8000pxs and sxs
Yamaha DSP e800
Harmon/kardon adp-303
Denon avd-2000
Lexicon dc-2
Lexicon mc-8
Tonewinner at-300

And I'm still using the power amps from in audiolab and e800 era in this and different system, re jigged them sold a couple to fund the big 200w beasts fancied more power in lesser number of boxes (HT amps rather stereo amps) but in practice could still be using the 100w amps in exactly same position. And I'm still using two px amps and two sx amps.

Whereas that e800 is is in digital heaven.
Amazing thanks for this, it’s very helpful.

Will the power of the amp impact the clarity, or does it just allow to speakers to play sound at a higher volume? Sorry it’s a totally rookie question, but it certainly sounds like I should be looking at separates if so …I just have the headache of where to house them to overcome then
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Amazing thanks for this, it’s very helpful.

Will the power of the amp impact the clarity, or does it just allow to speakers to play sound at a higher volume? Sorry it’s a totally rookie question, but it certainly sounds like I should be looking at separates if so …I just have the headache of where to house them to overcome then

No, it's a good question, that goes unanswered mostly on AVF as far as I can see.

Many people on here believe that the power amplification is just about the power. I have other views:


It is a very complex subject.

When you get further down the line with your system @Mr Wolf has a handy power calculator tool that he can run for you, see here:


There is also his amazing sub selection help tool:

 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Both in my experience, more control of the speaker,.find bass better defined, and able to play loud, at above reference sounds absolutely clean. I've heard a flagship avr and it sounded awful loud, I told the guy to switch it off it sounds horrid, should have seen his face haha.

I've blown a treble driver in the past with a avr so since then I've gone seperates. My speakers are out of production so last thing I want to do is blow drivers from a weedy amp.

The minimum I would do is get avr + three channel amp say emotiva xpa-3. Freeing up those important three channels will give a big power boost to remaining.
 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
Will the power of the amp impact the clarity, or does it just allow to speakers to play sound at a higher volume?
The key question here is how loud do you like to listen as this is the single biggest factor in determining how much amplifier power you will need in your system e.g. if you listen only 3dB below someone else then you literally only need 50% of the power, 6dB below only 25% of the power, 10dB below then only 10% of the power, 20dB below only 1% of the power. The second biggest factor is the design, sensitivity and impedance profile of the speakers being driven.

Of course our ears will all have varying levels of sensitivity but with a source mastered at reference level (not streamed sources which are mastered lower), personally my ears say stop at about -15dB volume level which means 90dB maximum peaks from the main speakers and 100dB maximum peaks from the subs. If you don't think that's very loud then grab an SPL meter and do a test.

For me, my AVR is more than enough for my power needs as it gives me about 12dB dynamic headroom in the front channels and the maximum power that any of my speakers need to reach a 90dB peak is only about 5 Watts.

Be very careful as there's a lot of ridiculous misinformation in this thread about amplifier power e.g. considering an AVR's maximum power output capability per channel above 5-channels driven simultaneously is utterly nonsensical as soundtracks never demand this.

For most people, a one-box AVR solution can work perfectly well, especially if paired with suitable speakers.

Need further convincing? THX Ultra Certified AVRs (typically capable of 2x140W and 5x100W output) have been independently measured as being able to hit true cinema reference levels (i.e. 105dB peaks) cleanly in large 3,000Ft3 rooms at seating distances >12Ft when used with the right speakers (89dB sensitivity/twin 6.5" drivers). If you listened at -10dB then you would only need an AVR with 10% of this power - this is a scientific fact.
 
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Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
@Mr Wolf completely agree with your comments. There seems to be a bit of an obsession with amplifier power full stop on AVF 🤣

It was not for power reasons that I was suggesting the idea of lower spec Denon plus power amp, it was for other potential benefits (as mentioned). The main one being the upgrade path for "new features".
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Yeah you don't need hundreds of watts of power but I'd rather have a 7x.100w poweramp than a flagship avr. Long term wise it's a better option.

It's the same reason soundbar versus avr..
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
If I’m understanding this correctly then, I would get better sound quality from buying a cheaper AV such as the Denon X3700 and preamping some of the speakers than I would from just buying a Denon X6700, is that correct?

Which then begs the question if so, why does the X6700 exist?

Denon X3700 - £1149
Emotiva BasX A7 - £799
Total £1948

Denon X6700 - £2299
Cost difference £351

Will all amps by default be better than the amps that come inside an AV? And if so, what is the smallest amp that people are aware of?

Annoyingly I think I’m going to have to take the hit on sound quality as I simply can’t house separates or even the Morantz. The cavity in my tv unit is tiny (90cm x 18cm x 38cm) there is the added constraint of it having a lip on the top so there’s only about 15cm to get things in and out (image attached, don’t hate on me for my past indiscretions of a HT box, I was young naïve and skint. I’m righting that wrong now).

Basically even if I want the Denon (which I don’t now as I’ve been persuaded otherwise 😂) I’ll have to rip the back off the tv carbonate to squeeze it in and likely fit a fan on the back to keep it cool enough to work. If I then put an amp next to that then there’s no room for the Sky Q box, Samsung OneConnect box, or PlayStation (which will be upgraded when I actually have time to play the thing again).

Does anyone know of a solution, aside from the obvious but already vetoed “replace the tv cabinet”?
 

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rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Personally I'd get something more than bas X, the iota 7ch is only s bit more and heftier. There's also the tonewinner 7300 pa
Bas X is fan cooled
 
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Luckosaurous

Standard Member
The key question here is how loud do you like to listen as this is the single biggest factor in determining how much amplifier power you will need in your system e.g. if you listen only 3dB below someone else then you literally only need 50% of the power, 6dB below only 25% of the power, 10dB below then only 10% of the power, 20dB below only 1% of the power. The second biggest factor is the design, sensitivity and impedance profile of the speakers being driven.

Of course our ears will all have varying levels of sensitivity but with a source mastered at reference level (not streamed sources which are mastered lower), personally my ears say stop at about -15dB volume level which means 90dB maximum peaks from the main speakers and 100dB maximum peaks from the subs. If you don't think that's very loud then grab an SPL meter and do a test.

For me, my AVR is more than enough for my power needs as it gives me about 12dB dynamic headroom in the front channels and the maximum power that any of my speakers need to reach a 90dB peak is only about 5 Watts.

Be very careful as there's a lot of ridiculous misinformation in this thread about amplifier power e.g. considering an AVR's maximum power output capability per channel above 5-channels driven simultaneously is utterly nonsensical as soundtracks never demand this.

For most people, a one-box AVR solution can work perfectly well, especially if paired with suitable speakers.

Need further convincing? THX Ultra Certified AVRs (typically capable of 2x140W and 5x100W output) have been independently measured as being able to hit true cinema reference levels (i.e. 105dB peaks) cleanly in large 3,000Ft3 rooms at seating distances >12Ft when used with the right speakers (89dB sensitivity/twin 6.5" drivers). If you listened at -10dB then you would only need an AVR with 10% of this power - this is a scientific fact.
So if I don’t listen at loud volumn then I won’t hear a difference between an AVR and separates?

I’ve just ordered Arendal 1961 for the ground level (2 towers, 1 centre, 4 bookshelf’s, and 2 S1 subs) I was going to order 4 OSD R83A’s for the atmos.

I’m begrudgingly prepared to take the hit on it largely being a waste of money buying an all in one box AVR solution due to space constraints. But if it’s a waste of money and poorer sound quality I may need to try to figure out a work around.
 

DrH

Well-known Member
Been watching your thread and I think it has been sidelined a bit with chasing power amps.

With your TV unit that you have

An amplifier will need room to dissipate heat usually above, just looking at my AVR there are vents all along the top, I think it has a recommendation of 10cm above.
You may need to look at a slimline AVR, I believe that Marantz do some, there may other brands. They have less power. As shown by Mr Wolf you probably don’t need massive power. I usually listen at no more than 20db below reference.

How loud do you want to listen?
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Personally I'd get something more than bas X, the iota 7ch is only s bit more and heftier. There's also the tonewinner 7300 pa
Bas X is fan cooled
Yeah the tonewinners a monster though, it’s too big.

I did look at the bas x as that’s only 10cm tall so I could just about put something above it. And I reckon when I take the back off rhe tv cabinet I could probably route some cables into one of the draws to house things that work off Bluetooth like the PlayStation and the one connect rather than infrared. But even if I do that, it still leaves a lot of heat generating equipment in a small cavity.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
So if I don’t listen at loud volumn then I won’t hear a difference between an AVR and separates?

I’ve just ordered Arendal 1961 for the ground level (2 towers, 1 centre, 4 bookshelf’s, and 2 S1 subs) I was going to order 4 OSD R83A’s for the atmos.

I’m begrudgingly prepared to take the hit on it largely being a waste of money buying an all in one box AVR solution due to space constraints. But if it’s a waste of money and poorer sound quality I may need to try to figure out a work around.


No, its fine.

Just get an AVR if possible with a decent pre-out voltage which can take advantage of external amplification in the future.

Even if you can't, don't sweat it... Its not big deal. You made the right decision in investing the majority of your budget on the SPEAKERS and ensuring they're timbre matched with an extraordinary soundstage and soundfield, whilst packing a very long warranty and good customer service.

Amplfiiers and AVRs are important but the majority of the sound quality is made up of the capability of your speakers.

Also I think it wouldn't be a bad shout to start with an AVR and get to know the basics of EQ, if you like it and what features you want from an AVR. e.g. EQ wise, Audyssey or DIRAC etc. Some of the suggestions here (e.g. Tonewinner) will leave you with a bare bones system when it comes to extracting sound quality easily for someone new to this hobby.

You have a pretty massive budget so no need to waste it on components you don't understand yet. Its not a race. Amplifiers if you're prepared to wait can be bought for a song. I bought a Nakmichi AVP1 for £350 delivered with 1 years warranty which is fairly comprable to a IOTA for £1k+.

If I were to reccomend an amplifier, I'd personally try to look second hand. An Arcam AVR550/850 has a bug which means it has an excellent 4volt pre-out voltage to extract power from an amplifier and they go ridiculously cheap at the moment and pack DIRAC.

IF you want ease of use, I think a Denon or Marantz will leave you with a lot of QOL features which other brands seem to not be able to nail as easily.



Yes, dedicated power amplifiers can allow you to drive speakers more cleanly with far less distortion and subjectively sound better but.. live with the speakers first. What happens if you only ever listen -20db and never go to reference? Then spending £2-3k on dedicated amplification and processors will be a bit of a waste of money when it could have gone else where.

Also if you have dual subs, I highyl reccomend a minidsp2x4HD as you need to get the best out of them. Otherwise 2 subs uncalibrated can actually sound worse than 1 sub!
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
You don't want to put things ontop of poweramps.
You can add powrrsmps later if needed or demo.

Those big amps have excellent cooling look at ATI 2007 for example massive heatsinks

Just have to accept separates will take up full hifi rack and not squeezed into a little cubby.
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Been watching your thread and I think it has been sidelined a bit with chasing power amps.

With your TV unit that you have

An amplifier will need room to dissipate heat usually above, just looking at my AVR there are vents all along the top, I think it has a recommendation of 10cm above.
You may need to look at a slimline AVR, I believe that Marantz do some, there may other brands. They have less power. As shown by Mr Wolf you probably don’t need massive power. I usually listen at no more than 20db below reference.

How loud do you want to listen?
I imagine no louder than you? I don’t really have a frame of reference as I don’t know how much 20db actually sounds like because I’ve only had a junky ht in a box device until now.
10cm space above to allow it to vent may be a real tricky problem to overcome as I definitely don’t have that in this cabinet (it’s only 18cm tall) and I’m under strict instructions not to replace it as all the furniture matches it. It’s looking more and more likely that I’m going to have to route this all out to the adjacent dining room which is going to be a VERY difficult sell to Mrs Luckosaurous
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Denon and marantz get hot you may want to invest in some artic coolings fans.

Yeah it's not a race it's taken me years to get to this level.

I'd say use the Denon for now pay it off save money and get multichannel amp later if feel lacking.
 

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