Arendal 1961 or Kef Q series

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
The processor you have? Sure that is option, but i think the room eq is manual peq so need REW and usb mic to measure room response first and manually then tweak it? Not for everyone i guess. Yamaha receivers has the similar manual PEQ through web setup. Lot of people want easy to use setup like Audussey / YPAO with the auto setup following on-screen instructions.

Many wants one box solution for living room and then something like SR8015 could be awesome.

One could buy Denon X3700H for 1k£ and then add some beefy poweramp too to run 7.2.4 system. Many ways to proceed for sure.
 
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Luckosaurous

Standard Member
The processor + poweramp route is not cheap and not a requirement!

The X6700H should be more than adequate filling your 5x3 room assuming you sit roughly 3meters away. If you want one box solution then it´s quite strong option. Made in Japan this model like the one below i talk more next.

However there is also Marantz SR8015 which is similar due to being sister company, but it has slightly larger toroidal powersupply and larger capacitors, this machine is used by many people all around the world to power speakers in much larger rooms than yours without any poweramps. 2800£, but i feel you have good chance to get better pricing around Christmas so 2500£ could be possible, especially if you can buy something from the dealer at same time (speakers/subwoofers etc). They have made some changes to this model which aren`t yet in their processors even and objectively this measures better than their 4000£ processor. However it`s more about the engineering excellence than something dramatic audible wise. So my money would go to this model if some dealer would give you deal for 2500£ - and i would need one box solution! Best time to ask that is around Black Friday or Christmas time assuming you don´t buy anything other than the receiver. If you buy more products then you should get discount right away if availability is good for this.

Read this if intrested:
Thanks for this, I had looked at the Marantz and preferred it aesthetically over the Denon, but as far as I could tell they had the exact same specs, and so I couldn’t justify the extra £400ish cost on it just having a prettier facade.

Unlike the Arendal speakers that time line works perfectly for me. I likely won’t be moving into my new house until December/January (depending on whether the person buying my house decides to pull their finger out) so I can wait until the price drops a little.

Do you think next years model will have any other features that this one won’t that may be worth waiting for? I had noticed a few reviews mentioning HDMI 2.1 and alluding that no processor has true 2.1 at the moment, but it went a little over my head and I haven’t come back to researching that point yet.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Probably the next models will have more hdmi 2.1 connections. But D&M is offering you that external box which has 3 inputs if you need to buy it later. However if you aren`t a gamer then i wouldn`t worry too much. Even if you are you could connect the gaming console straight to tv if it has 2.1 inputs and get sound via eARC.

No, the SR8015 doesn`t have same internals as X6700H so you get little performance boost.

Example Gene compared the earlier SR8012 to Denon which both are basically idetical to these new models you looking (with different hdmi board) and Marantz has new better HDAM circuit too.

Gene said:

Marantz SR8012 Advantages over the Denon AVR-X6500H:

  • HDAM SA2 current feedback topology between preamp and power amp
  • 22,000uF, 81V capacitors x 2 vs 15,000uF, 73V capacitors (X-6500H)
  • Torodial 835VA transformer vs 750VA E-Core (X-6500H)
  • Separated symmetric construction vs single in-line (X6500H)
  • Copper plated chassis
  • More rigid top cover
  • Teflon tape on oscillator circuit for better damping
In my opinion, these are all noteworthy improvements and a justifiable upgrade path if you're a serious audiophile and plan on using the internal amps of this receiver to drive your entire speaker system.
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Probably the next models will have more hdmi 2.1 connections. But D&M is offering you that external box which has 3 inputs if you need to buy it later. However if you aren`t a gamer then i wouldn`t worry too much. Even if you are you could connect the gaming console straight to tv if it has 2.1 inputs and get sound via eARC.

No, the SR8015 doesn`t have same internals as X6700H so you get little performance boost.

Example Gene compared the earlier SR8012 to Denon which both are basically idetical to these new models you looking (with different hdmi board) and Marantz has new better HDAM circuit too.

Gene said:

Marantz SR8012 Advantages over the Denon AVR-X6500H:

  • HDAM SA2 current feedback topology between preamp and power amp
  • 22,000uF, 81V capacitors x 2 vs 15,000uF, 73V capacitors (X-6500H)
  • Torodial 835VA transformer vs 750VA E-Core (X-6500H)
  • Separated symmetric construction vs single in-line (X6500H)
  • Copper plated chassis
  • More rigid top cover
  • Teflon tape on oscillator circuit for better damping
In my opinion, these are all noteworthy improvements and a justifiable upgrade path if you're a serious audiophile and plan on using the internal amps of this receiver to drive your entire speaker system.
Thanks Gasp! You and everyone here are so helpful! I really appreciate it 😊

I think I’m going to go for the Arendals, I’ve messaged to see if I can get them to extend the returns policy from 60days for me as I won’t be able to test them until I get into my new house if I buy them now, and I can’t afford them when the price goes up next month.

I’ll probably just go for the Marantz as there isn’t a lot of space in my furniture to house separates. Im already spending a lot more than I had wanted to on the speakers and the AV so I don’t want to add to it with the cost of new furniture too 🙈
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
Thanks for this, I had looked at the Marantz and preferred it aesthetically over the Denon, but as far as I could tell they had the exact same specs, and so I couldn’t justify the extra £400ish cost on it just having a prettier facade.

Unlike the Arendal speakers that time line works perfectly for me. I likely won’t be moving into my new house until December/January (depending on whether the person buying my house decides to pull their finger out) so I can wait until the price drops a little.

Do you think next years model will have any other features that this one won’t that may be worth waiting for? I had noticed a few reviews mentioning HDMI 2.1 and alluding that no processor has true 2.1 at the moment, but it went a little over my head and I haven’t come back to researching that point yet.
Unless your are a hardcore gamer 2.1 has no interest you simply need to maybe ensure that eARC is supported and your are good to go.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Thanks for this, I had looked at the Marantz and preferred it aesthetically over the Denon, but as far as I could tell they had the exact same specs, and so I couldn’t justify the extra £400ish cost on it just having a prettier facade.

Unlike the Arendal speakers that time line works perfectly for me. I likely won’t be moving into my new house until December/January (depending on whether the person buying my house decides to pull their finger out) so I can wait until the price drops a little.

Do you think next years model will have any other features that this one won’t that may be worth waiting for? I had noticed a few reviews mentioning HDMI 2.1 and alluding that no processor has true 2.1 at the moment, but it went a little over my head and I haven’t come back to researching that point yet.

That's the problem the avr will be out of date you want the new hdmi features left with out of date avr that people won't want to buy the value goes down.

Try and sell non HDR capable avr

Then need to spend money on Amps again.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks Gasp! You and everyone here are so helpful! I really appreciate it 😊

I think I’m going to go for the Arendals, I’ve messaged to see if I can get them to extend the returns policy from 60days for me as I won’t be able to test them until I get into my new house if I buy them now, and I can’t afford them when the price goes up next month.

I’ll probably just go for the Marantz as there isn’t a lot of space in my furniture to house separates. Im already spending a lot more than I had wanted to on the speakers and the AV so I don’t want to add to it with the cost of new furniture too 🙈

If you go with Marantz i would probably wait until Black Friday or Christmas sales cause you don´t need it now. Personally i would never pay list price for any product. There is always air in the hifi shop prices. So don´t rush if possible.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Thanks Gasp! You and everyone here are so helpful! I really appreciate it 😊

I think I’m going to go for the Arendals, I’ve messaged to see if I can get them to extend the returns policy from 60days for me as I won’t be able to test them until I get into my new house if I buy them now, and I can’t afford them when the price goes up next month.

I’ll probably just go for the Marantz as there isn’t a lot of space in my furniture to house separates. Im already spending a lot more than I had wanted to on the speakers and the AV so I don’t want to add to it with the cost of new furniture too 🙈

Almost forgot. If you buy any D&M product ask the dealer to check that it`s made after May.


PS. This one runs hot, make sure you have space top and around it!
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
One could buy Denon X3700H for 1k£ and then add some beefy poweramp too to run 7.2.4 system. Many ways to proceed for sure.

Which is what I was suggesting right back at the beginning.

x3700 or x4700 plus a power amp, so you carry on using the internal amps too.

Step 1:
x3700 or x4700 plus (for example) IOTA 7 channel. Use Denon internal amps for heights.

Year or two later:
Add another power amp, switch Denon to pre amp mode.

Another year or two later:
Consider upgrade to processor (with new bells and whistles that have been added over that period of time, in floor "depth" processing, 16k video for our entire wall screens etc).
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Man that Marantz is a chonky boi huh? It’s actually too big to fit in my tv cabinet 😐

If I bought separates are they likely to be smaller and what impact will that have in heat? Ie will they need more/less/the same breathing room?

I know in the long run separates make more sense, but man this setup is proving to be expensive! I’ve just upsold myself into spending £5k on just the speakers which was ideally what I had originally hoped to spend on the whole setup. I guess you know what they say about a fool and his money 😂
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Yup to lower in height and heat. My at-300 gets barely warm

 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Yup to lower in height and heat. My at-300 gets barely warm

What about the amps that I would need to go with it though, will they too be smaller than the Marantz? I’ve done a quick search and it looks like they will be pretty big and I’ll need a couple of them as there aren’t any 11 channel amps in budget.

I think it’s probably unrealistic to think I can shoehorn good sound quality into my small tv unit, but I somehow have to sell this to my wife and I don’t think she will agree that we need an AV stack in our living room.

@Gasp3621 how much worse would the Denon sound quality be than the Marantz?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Seperates will be bigger. But even mid range power amps will be superior to flagship avr
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Seperates will be bigger. But even mid range power amps will be superior to flagship avr
Hmm… how much better are we talking? The cavity in my tv unit is tiny and I really don’t want to replace it.

I could set up an AV stack in the dining room but that’s going to require a lot of persuasion with the mrs and add even further to the cost as I guess I’d need a fiber optic HDMI to run such a long cable from the tv to another room plus I’d need to buy more furniture to stack them in. I wonder if I’m getting a little carried away with all of this for a humble living room set up 🤔
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
How many speakers do you intend to power from a avr? Here is the 8015 marantz. Good with five channels driven but use that reduction % to get approx when powering the full 11 channels.
 

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Luckosaurous

Standard Member
How many speakers do you intend to power from a avr? Here is the 8015 marantz. Good with five channels driven but use that reduction % to get approx when powering the full 11 channels.
I’ll be buying 11 speakers that need power. The problem with the Marantz units is that they are so big. The height of the cavity in my tv stand is only 18cm, they’re 18.5cm tall plus’s they need breathing room.

It’s not very wide either, probably about 1m and I’ve got to squeeze a Samsung one connect box, Sky Q box, and a PlayStation in there as well somehow 😧
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
With that above graph I'd be concerned once power is 50w or so, say if that's with all 11 speakers connected.

Of course you could add a multi channel poweramp to power some of the speakers freeing up power on the Marantz avr. Either way big boxes
Or you could get 11 of these

 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
With that above graph I'd be concerned once power is 50w or so, say if that's with all 11 speakers connected.

Of course you could add a multi channel poweramp to power some of the speakers freeing up power on the Marantz avr. Either way big boxes
Or you could get 11 of these

I’m not going to lie, that graph went way over my head. Is it saying that an av receiver that is a processor and an amp combined is junk if you run too many channels from it?

I’m in turmoil; on the one hand, I don’t have much room and so the Denon appeals as it actually fits into the unit I have. Also, though I don’t have a fixed budget, I also don’t have an endless pot of money and I have already talked myself into spending more than I wanted to on speakers so I could do with reigning in the spending.
On the other hand I’m spending £5k+ on speakers, it would be stupid not to give them a platform to allow them to perform to the best of their ability.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Answer has variables

Ie best case scenario would be you are running stereo speakers, in a small room, with high efficiency speakers, you have a subwoofer so crossing high, 8 ohm speakers, not playing that loud, and you have a flagship avr.

Worst case scenario you are running the maximum number of speakers the avr allows, in a big room, with very inefficient speakers, you don't have a subwoofer so running full range, 4 ohm speakers, are playing very loud, and you gave a bargain basement avr.

That avr is not junk but be aware the more speakers you connect the less power per channel.

If going with rough estimate following the curve that marantz is 47w X 11


Whereas this is 110/170w all channel driven
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Answer has variables

Ie best case scenario would be you are running stereo speakers, in a small room, with high efficiency speakers, you have a subwoofer so crossing high, 8 ohm speakers, not playing that loud, and you have a flagship avr.

Worst case scenario you are running the maximum number of speakers the avr allows, in a big room, with very inefficient speakers, you don't have a subwoofer so running full range, 4 ohm speakers, are playing very loud, and you gave a bargain basement avr.

That avr is not junk but be aware the more speakers you connect the less power per channel.

If going with rough estimate following the curve that marantz is 47w X 11


Whereas this is 110/170w all channel driven
Thank you. It’s rare that I would listen at HIGH volume as mrs Luckosaurous doesn’t like it, but at the same time I want to be able to push it from time to time.

I’ve just bought 7 ground level speakers from Arendal in the 1961 range which are all 4 ohm, though I’ve also bought 2 subs if that matters? The plan is to get 4 OSD R83A’s for the atmos level.

Do you think it would be a mistake to buy an all in one?
 

Luckosaurous

Standard Member
Sure there are some benefits, but is it necessary with cheaper speaker system to put so much money in to processor + amps (4k£?) as this isn´t dedicated room either with room treatments? The professional people in the industry with most knowledge always says in this order:

A) put lot of money in to high quality speakers with great controlled directivity (Arendals, Kefs, Revels, JBLs etc) with the dynamic capabilities to suit your room.

B) spend money for room treatments as room plays so big role what you hear - 10k£ processor with best room eq can´t fix all issues even if the marketing guy claims otherwise. There is articles showing cheaper speakers sound better in treated room than lot more expensive ones in non treated room. This again shows how important it is if the end goal is best possible sound quality. The below thread first post should be sticky:

C) good receiver/processor with effective room correction software that can fix room modes (below room transit freq ~300-500hz), where the treatments are less effective. It´s then up to person if he wants to opt for full range correction or something between.

Also as we have seen there is many things in play with the processor vs. receiver subjective sound quality differences. Done in blind test method would person be able to pick the processor ~9 times of 10 over the receiver with same amps used on both level matched? We have science supported objective measurements showing the processors aren´t measuring any better to same brand flagship receivers so the claims that processor would sound night and day better is likely more about placebo effect and expectation bias which example Floyd Toole has talked many times when reviewing gear. Mind can play tricks if you see products which you compare and you already have some idea which sounds better cause everyone at forums says it must be so and you are thinking "it must sound better cause it costs so much more".
So am I right in understanding that if I don’t treat my room (which I won’t as there is no way I’m selling that to mrs Luckosaurous) that the processor isn’t of as much importance? Obviously a good one is better than a bad one, but this will very much be a case of diminishing returns, and I’ve done the best thing by spending most my money on speakers?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Johnsj24.has arendel with Denon avr and I will think bought a poweramp ask him if adding Poweramp was worth it
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Sure there are some benefits, but is it necessary with cheaper speaker system to put so much money in to processor + amps (4k£?) as this isn´t dedicated room either with room treatments? The professional people in the industry with most knowledge always says in this order:

A) put lot of money in to high quality speakers with great controlled directivity (Arendals, Kefs, Revels, JBLs etc) with the dynamic capabilities to suit your room.

B) spend money for room treatments as room plays so big role what you hear - 10k£ processor with best room eq can´t fix all issues even if the marketing guy claims otherwise. There is articles showing cheaper speakers sound better in treated room than lot more expensive ones in non treated room. This again shows how important it is if the end goal is best possible sound quality. The below thread first post should be sticky:

C) good receiver/processor with effective room correction software that can fix room modes (below room transit freq ~300-500hz), where the treatments are less effective. It´s then up to person if he wants to opt for full range correction or something between.

Also as we have seen there is many things in play with the processor vs. receiver subjective sound quality differences. Done in blind test method would person be able to pick the processor ~9 times of 10 over the receiver with same amps used on both level matched? We have science supported objective measurements showing the processors aren´t measuring any better to same brand flagship receivers so the claims that processor would sound night and day better is likely more about placebo effect and expectation bias which example Floyd Toole has talked many times when reviewing gear. Mind can play tricks if you see products which you compare and you already have some idea which sounds better cause everyone at forums says it must be so and you are thinking "it must sound better cause it costs so much more".

Sorry, I'm sounding like a broken record here. I was not suggesting spending piles of cash on a pre/pro setup.

The cost of an x3700 (or x4700) plus an Iota 7 channel power amp is about the same as an x6700. But the AVR with Iota gives potentially better flexibility in the future. The x6700 offers slightly mroe channel processing but we don't believe the OP is interested in that. So the only real disadvantage remaining is that (1) there could be a slight audible advantage in the pre-amplification of the x6700 and (2) it's one box to fit on the shelf and not two.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Emotiva bas-x.7 channel is £800 and probably slightly better than a flagship AV. Probably not the massive jump but benefit of being seperates so you could reuse as other channels another system etc

You could get avr plus one of those using that for mains or surrounds (which frees up power for remaining) or buy a combination to get 11 with at-300.

Or Denon 3700 with emotiva xpa three channel for front three.

You have lots of options it really depends long term plans how much you're into the hobby.

Simplest would be a avr.

Extreme layout would be trinnov altitude 32 AV pre amp with eleven monoblocs,.or even double that to go bicamping, with getting speakers concerted with active crossovers like Linn aktiv, with a stereo analogue pre amp /or stereo pre amp with room correction and with HT bypass and stereo dac

With anything in between those two.

Personally I wouldn't buy a flagship avr you're paying £2000 and within couple of years the hdmi section is missing features you want...ie with 120hz vrr at 4k all those expensive avr and AV pre are now worthless as people want it for console gaming. So you have to buy new flagship avr to get same Poweramp quality as before losing money on a perfectly good Poweramp avr section.


Even my new AV pre is already out of date but at least I can replace that if I want console gaming, and it wasn't insanely expensive.

Arendel are also 4 ohm speakers, mine are also, I found 4 ohm speakers a bit woeful when driven by avrs.

I'm using 5 X 300, 2 X 200 and 4 X 70w power amps ( four amp boxes) I can change the AV out anytime and I still have the amps. Those 200/300 beasts will outclass any flagship avr, and will keep for 20 years.. I've changed my AV pre from

Audiolab 8000s, then 8000q with 8000pxs and sxs
Yamaha DSP e800
Harmon/kardon adp-303
Denon avd-2000
Lexicon dc-2
Lexicon mc-8
Tonewinner at-300

And I'm still using the power amps from in audiolab and e800 era in this and different system, re jigged them sold a couple to fund the big 200w beasts fancied more power in lesser number of boxes (HT amps rather stereo amps) but in practice could still be using the 100w amps in exactly same position. And I'm still using two px amps and two sx amps.

Whereas that e800 is is in digital heaven.
 

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