Arendal 1723 dual Sub1S vs SVS Dual SB3000 any thoughts?

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
PSA subwoofer design actually attracts me to the brand.

One of my turns off for Arendal (and I love them) is the finish is not durable. I sometimes use subwoofer as a coffee table or somewhere to put my remote. I don't want a glossy finish which is going to scratch easily and drop in value and aesthetics the older it gets.

The PSA subwoofers look like they'll age VERY well and look as nice as the day you got them.

I'm pretty sure the Arendal satin finish is going to scratch and well.. no need to talk about gloss.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Definitely a tricky balancing act for sure. I can’t see them opening up a dealer network as such but possibly some sort of holding point here maybe. I guess they’ll measure any impact and assess from there.

Without meaning to infringe on anyone, ahem @AmericanAudio, I suppose now's good time as any to consider an EuropeanAudio 🇪🇺. :D
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Another crazy thought, reading more on PB3000, especially from Audioholics, it seem to have that nice balance of visceral low end with good upper bass for a ported sub. It is certainly not as heavy or large as PB4000.
Do you think mixing the PB with SB is an option. ie I could accommodate the larger PB3000 on the left corner placement ( pls see the diagrams and photo on page one of this thread at the beginning) but I really cannot fit the PB on the right side to the TV. It will be too tall and protruding too much as it is 60cm deep and it will be wasted on that location anyway as at that location, the sub tanks below 30hz. But an SB3000 will be a perfect fit there.
So.... any thoughts on PB3000 + SB3000 working together. I know they have similar sound signature and Same excellent driver but Sealed+ Ported combo? will they work

Sanjay

In my experience mixing ported and sealed subs (even different subs from one type) is a lot of headache, likely to experience extreme phase issues around the port tune. The timing might also be an issue. However if your using the smaller sealed sub to address a major null at a specific point, it might come in handy but that does seem a waste.
 

KiwiRob

Active Member
PSA subwoofer design actually attracts me to the brand.

One of my turns off for Arendal (and I love them) is the finish is not durable. I sometimes use subwoofer as a coffee table or somewhere to put my remote. I don't want a glossy finish which is going to scratch easily and drop in value and aesthetics the older it gets.

The PSA subwoofers look like they'll age VERY well and look as nice as the day you got them.

I'm pretty sure the Arendal satin finish is going to scratch and well.. no need to talk about gloss.

Arendal have both bases covered, the 1723 comes with either matt or gloss finish, it’s about giving customers choice.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Arendal have both bases covered, the 1723 comes with either matt or gloss finish, it’s about giving customers choice.


I'm an Arendal owner too. You are missing the point. The 1723 finish is not very scratch resistant. If you put something ontop of it or handle it 'roughly', it will scratch due to the texture of the finish.

PSA subwoofers are made with a far more durable material which will NOT scratch easily.

Arendal do NOT give us a choice of an industrial finish which will age nicely so the conversation goes around in circles.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member
I'm an Arendal owner too. You are missing the point. The 1723 finish is not very scratch resistant. If you put something ontop of it or handle it 'roughly', it will scratch due to the texture of the finish.

PSA subwoofers are made with a far more durable material which will NOT scratch easily.

Arendal do NOT give us a choice of an industrial finish which will age nicely so the conversation goes around in circles.

100% agree, this is why I much prefer the finish of the 1961 speakers, far more robust and I actually prefer the look as well.
 

sanjualf

Active Member
Ideally if size limitation on the right side to the tv placement was not there I would now go for dual PB3000 I think. But though size is not issue on left far corner placement...... To the TV right, the PB3000’s 60cm depth sticks out too much into the lounge. The height of 56 cm is just about right below the speakers. I was going to do a cardboard cutout to visualise but my sofa foot stool was miraculously the same height and deep so have put that here to visualise.
If I pull the TV stand further outwards to keep all in line then the placements of LR speakers becomes an issue as when I installed them I had a 40 inch TV and now that I have a 55inch one they are a bit tight on either side of TV, so if I pull the tv stand further into the room I will loose some
Imaging from LR speakers.mmmm that’s why I wondered if mixing PB3000
At far left corner and SB3000 to the TV right will work as if that works it will be the best of both worlds. Some pictures below with the simulation
84A72851-EC83-43E0-B995-0DA0C87CA077.jpeg

58AD0F10-1907-4BFC-9A19-082C05638180.jpeg
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
Could you have a PB3000 next to your TV rotated sideways so that the driver fired to the right?
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
My gut reaction to your mixing PB3000 and SB3000 question is that SVS would advise against it. However, given this response you posted earlier I can see your logic since your left sub is already doing most of the work below 30 Hz. By around 60 Hz the SB and PB peak outputs are comparable going by the Audioholics data:


There is more to combining the two than just the frequency response but it might be interesting to ask Ed Mullen / SVS what they thought in your situation.
 

Conrad

Moderator
You could try it by running one of your 12.17s in sealed mode on the right and the other in full ported mode on the left. Measure each and have a look in REWs time alignment tool. Or post up an MDAT.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
FWIW REW's Room Simulator suggests moving the right sub to either of the right-hand room corners wouldn't give a bad response. I realise your current piano and desk positions means this probably isn't an option though.

Getting PB3000s into the mix does look like a route to more of a low frequency upgrade to me, but going back a step wasn't it higher frequency sub output you were most looking to improve?
 

sanjualf

Active Member
There is more to combining the two than just the frequency response but it might be interesting to ask Ed Mullen / SVS what they thought in your situation.

How did you read my mind😱 I already sent a mail to Ed Mullen first thing this morning hehe.

Will have to measure to see if the 60cm depth would fit sideways between the TV and the fireplace surround as, if it fits, that would be brilliant. But sadly I suspect it won’t as the TV edge protrudes slightly more to the sides than the edge of TV stand and the lower margin is definitely not up to the PB3000’s height.
Will be interesting to know what will Ed Mullen’s answer will be

To answer your other question, yes the extreme right front corner placement is doable as the piano is positioned diagonally slightly and there will be enough place for a large sub behind the piano in the corner which will not be visible as well, only issue is how to get the sun cable from receiver to the sub through the fireplace surround without visible cable spoiling the view?

Also regarding the PB3000 it seems it is matching the SB’s higher up frequency range output and punch according to the reviews and measurements at the same time having a lot more authority low down. Seems like I don’t have to miss the low end grunt as well and if I can get two PB3000’s I don’t think I will be disappointed in future even if bring them to a say 6X4 m dedicated room in future.

Edit: I tried the sideway route. Sadly the space between TV’s edge and fireplace surround is only 50cm falling well short of the PB’s 60 cm depth. Pity as this could have worked out

Sanjay
 
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sanjualf

Active Member
You could try it by running one of your 12.17s in sealed mode on the right and the other in full ported mode on the left. Measure each and have a look in REWs time alignment tool. Or post up an MDAT.

Thanks Conrad. That’s a very good suggestion. Why didn’t I think of that before. I will hopefully try it this weekend. I am not a REW expert and currently uses it with all speaker mode ( I don’t connect using HDMI but with a RCA line in from
Computer stereo outputs to a RCA input to the receiver so I run a frequency sweep from 140 downwards as I cannot just choose the sun channel alone as my cheap laptop do not have HDMI out and my iMac
Desktop do not have HDMI I think
 

Conrad

Moderator
That's fine. Disconnect either the left or right speaker and sweep each sub separately on the channel that you've disconnected, using the other channel as a timing reference.

- turn off left sub, turn on right sub, disconnect left main, run sweep on left channel with right as the timing reference.
Then
- turn off right sub, turn on left sub, disconnect left main, run sweep on left channel with right as the timing reference.

That'll give you two crossed over responses, one for each sub, with a timing reference. You can then use the time alignment tool to see how the responses interact with different delays. If you have the time and a long sub cable, stick the ported one in other spots that might be acceptable and measure it there as well, that way we can have a look and see if any of the other spots works with a ported/sealed mix.
 

sanjualf

Active Member
That's fine. Disconnect either the left or right speaker and sweep each sub separately on the channel that you've disconnected, using the other channel as a timing reference.

- turn off left sub, turn on right sub, disconnect left main, run sweep on left channel with right as the timing reference.
Then
- turn off right sub, turn on left sub, disconnect left main, run sweep on left channel with right as the timing reference.

That'll give you two crossed over responses, one for each sub, with a timing reference. You can then use the time alignment tool to see how the responses interact with different delays. If you have the time and a long sub cable, stick the ported one in other spots that might be acceptable and measure it there as well, that way we can have a look and see if any of the other spots works with a ported/sealed mix.
Thanks Conrad and I will Play around like you said tomorrow and see, when you meant timing reference what did you mean? I am quite poor at understanding REW time aligning/ Time reference but will read up a bit

doing some REW room sim

this is my current positions for my subs( both ported) which I found hard to better them either using room sim or in the past moving the subs to various locations and manually checking on REW /ARC quick measure
Screenshot 2021-01-30 at 12.33.19.png




If I turn the left corner to ported and right onto sealed this is what happens. Still perfectly useable
Screenshot 2021-01-30 at 12.48.52.png




I tried @Ultrasonic suggestion of moving the right sub to right front corner but this does not give a good response( big dips from 40 to 50 and 70 to 80 , though has a better output in 10-20 hz) as my current positions have as you can see below. And in my experience the room being rectangle and sealed the room Sim is quite accurate when measured in exact places.

Screenshot 2021-01-30 at 12.35.44.png
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
100% agree, this is why I much prefer the finish of the 1961 speakers, far more robust and I actually prefer the look as well.

Sparechange seemed to be in love with the 1961 finish too.

no doubt arendals look beautiful right.. space age pieces of art in my mind.. but durability is so important.
I see so many glossy svs subwoofers which second hand look awful.
 

Conrad

Moderator
Thanks Conrad and I will Play around like you said tomorrow and see, when you meant timing reference what did you mean? I am quite poor at understanding REW time aligning/ Time reference but will read up a bit

doing some REW room sim

this is my current positions for my subs( both ported) which I found hard to better them either using room sim or in the past moving the subs to various locations and manually checking on REW /ARC quick measure
View attachment 1451300



If I turn the left corner to ported and right onto sealed this is what happens. Still perfectly useable
View attachment 1451301



I tried @Ultrasonic suggestion of moving the right sub to right front corner but this does not give a good response( big dips from 40 to 50 and 70 to 80 , though has a better output in 10-20 hz) as my current positions have as you can see below. And in my experience the room being rectangle and sealed the room Sim is quite accurate when measured in exact places.

View attachment 1451312

A timing reference is a signal that REW can play before taking a measurement. Because REW knows when it played the timing reference and when it plays the main signal, it's able to calculate the delay between the timing speaker and the measured speaker. If you measure multiple speakers each with the same timing reference it's able to calculate the relative delays between the different measured speakers.

To use it, in the measure window enable the acoustic timing reference and choose the output and the ref output.

1612014000113.png


It has to be on a main speaker, you can't use a sub as a timing reference.

Usually it's recommended that you measure the subs on either the LFE channel or on a mains channel but without the main playing, so that you can see just the crossed over sub response. IN your case that's not particularly important just yet as we're not doing sub/main integration. It still might be useful though, so if you can disconnect the main then that would be great.

As I say, I'd measure on the L channel with the L speaker disconnected and the timing reference on the R channel. Measure each sub in turn, once in each position, always with the same timing reference.
 

sanjualf

Active Member
A timing reference is a signal that REW can play before taking a measurement. Because REW knows when it played the timing reference and when it plays the main signal, it's able to calculate the delay between the timing speaker and the measured speaker. If you measure multiple speakers each with the same timing reference it's able to calculate the relative delays between the different measured speakers.

To use it, in the measure window enable the acoustic timing reference and choose the output and the ref output.

View attachment 1451340

It has to be on a main speaker, you can't use a sub as a timing reference.

Usually it's recommended that you measure the subs on either the LFE channel or on a mains channel but without the main playing, so that you can see just the crossed over sub response. IN your case that's not particularly important just yet as we're not doing sub/main integration. It still might be useful though, so if you can disconnect the main then that would be great.

As I say, I'd measure on the L channel with the L speaker disconnected and the timing reference on the R channel. Measure each sub in turn, once in each position, always with the same timing reference.

Thanks for the detailed reply and explanation. Will try these tomorrow
 

KiwiRob

Active Member
I'm an Arendal owner too. You are missing the point. The 1723 finish is not very scratch resistant. If you put something ontop of it or handle it 'roughly', it will scratch due to the texture of the finish.

PSA subwoofers are made with a far more durable material which will NOT scratch easily.

Arendal do NOT give us a choice of an industrial finish which will age nicely so the conversation goes around in circles.

If you want to put something on top of it to use as a side table get a piece of glass cut to fit. PSA speakers have a rough finish, they’re made to be hidden away from view.
 

andym81

Active Member
How did you read my mind😱 I already sent a mail to Ed Mullen first thing this morning hehe.

Will have to measure to see if the 60cm depth would fit sideways between the TV and the fireplace surround as, if it fits, that would be brilliant. But sadly I suspect it won’t as the TV edge protrudes slightly more to the sides than the edge of TV stand and the lower margin is definitely not up to the PB3000’s height.
Will be interesting to know what will Ed Mullen’s answer will be

To answer your other question, yes the extreme right front corner placement is doable as the piano is positioned diagonally slightly and there will be enough place for a large sub behind the piano in the corner which will not be visible as well, only issue is how to get the sun cable from receiver to the sub through the fireplace surround without visible cable spoiling the view?

Also regarding the PB3000 it seems it is matching the SB’s higher up frequency range output and punch according to the reviews and measurements at the same time having a lot more authority low down. Seems like I don’t have to miss the low end grunt as well and if I can get two PB3000’s I don’t think I will be disappointed in future even if bring them to a say 6X4 m dedicated room in future.

Edit: I tried the sideway route. Sadly the space between TV’s edge and fireplace surround is only 50cm falling well short of the PB’s 60 cm depth. Pity as this could have worked out

Sanjay
I ran sb and pb 2000 together for a year,
Was surprised how well they worked together but not perfect by any means.

I think I alot had to do with my living room been small and xt32 doing some magic.

Imo I'd go dual sb 3000 over mixing a ported and seald
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If you want to put something on top of it to use as a side table get a piece of glass cut to fit. PSA speakers have a rough finish, they’re made to be hidden away from view.
Put a lovely piece of cloth over the PSA subwoofers to make them look nice
😂😂😂

I am actually considering a piece of granite or semi precious stone but it will still scratch the surface. The arendal sheen is not scratch resistant at all.

PSA is.
Why be so stubborn to not admit psa’s finish is more durable?
 

AmericanAudio

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Without meaning to infringe on anyone, ahem @AmericanAudio, I suppose now's good time as any to consider an EuropeanAudio 🇪🇺. :D
We do now have a 'European & Scandinavia' section to our site, with some nice Scandi / EU brands joining us this quarter.

WTS.
 

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I tried @Ultrasonic suggestion of moving the right sub to right front corner but this does not give a good response
Firstly you've got your room the wrong way round in the simulator, although it won't really change the results. Secondly you need to tick the box to time align subs and mains, and then align individually. I had to guess quite where your head position was but I think you'll find you get a better result...
 

KiwiRob

Active Member
Put a lovely piece of cloth over the PSA subwoofers to make them look nice
😂😂😂

I am actually considering a piece of granite or semi precious stone but it will still scratch the surface. The arendal sheen is not scratch resistant at all.

PSA is.
Why be so stubborn to not admit psa’s finish is more durable?
Put rubber feet between the granite and the speaker, problem solved, anyway speakers aren’t made to put things on them.

If PSA speakers were made to be seen they would be nicer to look at.
 
Last edited:

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Put rubber feet between the granite and the speaker, problem solved, anyway speakers aren’t made to be used to put thinks on.

If PSA speakers were made to be seen they would be nicer to look at.

Still doesn’t take away from the inherent advantage PSA subs have with durability lol.
 

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