Are you at the anti-austerity march today?

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Jun 20, 2015.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
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    So, a big march in London today. Its organised by the People's Assembly who are organising a national campaign against cuts and austerity.

    In attendance...
    Owen Jones, Green MP Caroline Lucas , Labour leadership hopeful Jeremy Corbyn, Sinn Fein's Martin McGuinness and Unite boss Len McCluskey.

    Celebs like Charlotte Church, Michael Sheen and Maxine Peake.

    Now, we have just had an election and the people have voted.
    Isn't this an undemocratic way to topple the Tory party (an often stated aim of this group)


    Why does this group think they know a better way to run the economy?

    When is the anti-austerity march tomorrow and where is the meeting point? - Mirror Online
     
  2. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Protests are fine and can influence the government, to call for the government to be kicked out is a step too far though.

    The problem with this hodgepodge of causes is that it doesn't really have a single salient point, and it's be quickly forgotten and ignored.
    They should be protesting to have a decent opposition, rather than the labour self indulgent navel gazing.
     
  3. Iain42

    Iain42
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    Len McCluskey of Unite the Union, Shappi Khorsandi, comedian and activist, Sam Fairbairn, National Secretary of The People's Assembly and Amelia Womack, deputy leader of the Green Party.
    Caroline Lucas, Owen Jones and Jeremy Corbyn will also be speaking.

    Is this the Jurassic Party? Yes, let's go down the same crazy kind of road as the bankrupt Greeks! Only a few weeks after the majority of the electorate have voted for parties in favour of some kind of minor austerity (Conservative, Labour, Liberal Democrat, UKIP) what do they expect to achieve?
     
  4. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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  5. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    But they can afford too, bit like the Vatican.
     
  6. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    i would like to be, but i suspect the march will prove a magnet for people who wish to cause trouble therefore ruining what is a very justifiable event.Millionaires are welcome if they empathise
     
  7. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    Went on a couple of marches when a student 30,000,000 years ago.

    Will NEVER do it again. As LGS says marches are a magnet for the hoodies and scarves brigade. Very difficult to stay out of trouble when police move in with horses and batons.
     
  8. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Caroline Lucas and others are pretending that the Conservative government was somehow imposed on Britain. And that most people wanted Labour or Green.

    She said that the electoral system was not fair. But is was pointed out that even on total votes the Tories would have still won.
    Next it was that only x % actually voted anyway. If you subtract that from the population of Britain then only a minority voted. But why didn't they get off their butt and vote?
    Who is to say that all those lazy people would have voted against the Tories anyway?
    It should not be forgotten that Labour also had plans to tighten the belt.

    Some peoplel have still got their head in the clouds, will not accept democracy or believe the public got it wrong.
     
  9. Palladio

    Palladio
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    Yes, on the coach on the way home now. No idea of numbers but certainly experienced no trouble anywhere and people of all generations abounded. Democratically elected government !!!! Will that certainly depends on your definition of democracy. FPTP maybe but hardly representative of the majority of the people. Two mysteries of the universe I always fail to understand is why 1) if you're an activist as a student you're expected to become a good Tory as you grow older and 2) why you can't be an activist with a social conscious and empathy for the less privilege in society just because you get a few bob. Austerity is a political ideology not a viable economic policy.
     
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  10. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Well good for you and thanks to all the people who participated for keeping it peaceful.

    However, the march was expressing many anti Tory sentiments, but it must be accepted the majority people of Britain voted for the Tories. Its not right to say the voting system is not fair because, in this case, the majority still voted for the Tories.
    Look at this and the actual number of votes (not seats) show they won.
    Election 2015 - BBC News

    With FPTP you could have endless discussions about the poor showing of UKIP, and the massive number of seats the SNP got and we have been down that path. But that is not the case with the winner. Whatever system you choose the Tories still won. It was democratic.

    So, I say by all means speak out and voice your opinion on cuts, but bear in mind that you can't say that the Tories got in despite majority not wanting them (that was said many times).
    The Tories were quite clear what their plans would be before the election and the country agreed.

    By the way, no one wants cuts, but sometimes they are necessary because you can't live beyond your means.
     
  11. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Under PR

    Conservative 240
    Labour 198
    UKIP 83
    Liberal Democrat 51
    SNP 31
    Green 25
    Others 6
    DUP 4
    Sinn Fein 4
    Plaid Cymru 4
    UUP 3
    SDLP 2
    Alliance 1

    Still means lots of people voted to the right.
     
  12. hdsport

    hdsport
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    Were they trying to stage or incite a coup d'etat? If not then no.
    To which those on the march could come back and say why does a modern history graduate and failed journalist think he knows better than us?
    We could go down the road of arguing that countries can quite easily function with a deficit for instance how the 'fiscally responsible' Tories ran the country for all but 2 years between 1979 and 1997. Not all of which can be attributed to the usual line of 'cleaning up Labour's mess' as the two years of surplus were 1988 and '89.

    However even if you want to eliminate the deficit there is no need for an arbitary (albeit moveable in the Tories' case) deadline in which to do so. Especially if it creates the rollercoaster the OBR predicited for public services.

    They can also protest against targeting of certain groups whilst avoiding others purely for political expedience
     
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  13. Enki

    Enki
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    Really refreshing to see so many like mined people, the sense of being together from a huge variety of diverse backgrounds and representing all, gives me great hope for a better future, good firm start to the campaign, against austerity and neoliberal economics.
     
  14. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Lets just say its lucky the protesters were British and usually we have a certain way of keeping the lid on things.
    However, the sentiments expressed were not far short of saying the election was a fraud and undemocratic. In another country this could have easily been the start of a movement to oust the ruling party.
     
  15. Sve

    Sve
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    Did they, the last time I looked the tories got less than 50% of the votes which is a minority unless things have changed.
     
  16. Member 581642

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    250,000 also isn't a majority
     
  17. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Let me re- phrase that. The Tories were the only party that got a majority. Every other party came second, third etc and were minority parties. You can't group all the losing parties together to make a mathematical point because they all have opposing views. i.e. Labour+UKIP+Libdems+SNP :thumbsdow
     
  18. Sve

    Sve
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    A majority of what? but it must be accepted the majority people of Britain voted for the Tories. A majority of people did not vote tory, they got less than 50% of the vote so like all parties got a minority vote but a majority of mps.
     
  19. Member 581642

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    Though more people voted for the Tories than any other single party was the point I think
     
  20. Cliff

    Cliff
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    So what's your point?
    Do you think some other party have won?
    Do you think the election should be annulled?
    Should we all sit on the couch during election day and march after it doesn't go our way?
     
  21. Sve

    Sve
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    My point is, you posted something that is simply not true, it's in black and white. I was not making a mathematical point, your wrong pure and simple.
     
  22. Cliff

    Cliff
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    OK I accept!
    So apart from my careless phraseology you agree with the rest of my points about the march and the winner of the election?
     
  23. Enki

    Enki
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    You mean you don't want to enter another literal quantrophenia debate, not even a little bit :).
     
  24. Sve

    Sve
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    No I don't.

    No, who ever gets the most mp's gets to form the government (not always).
    No, why should I?
    Did I say that? If people want to march about something they are not happy about let them as long as it is peaceful.
     
  25. Iain42

    Iain42
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    Here's the breakdown of the votes in the election.

    All of the four top vote winners favoured a level of austerity, which I would say gives the government quite a mandate to ignore these protests.

    upload_2015-6-21_10-57-39.png
     
  26. Cliff

    Cliff
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    I would like the government to listen to the protests rather than ignore them. Feedback from the people is always important.

    Cuts are inevitable but there should be discussion on where they are made.
     
  27. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    24% of the electorate voted Tory.
    42% of the electorate voted for something other than the Tories.

    36.9% of the electorate who cast a vote supported the Tories.
    63.1% of the electorate who cast a vote didn't support the Tories.

    Due to the geographical distribution of voters and the political system in place, the Tories won.
    They do not however in any way shape or form represent a majority of either the actual electorates votes as a whole or those who actually voted.
     
  28. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    57% of the electorate voted for party which had some level of austerity measures.
    Even if 100% did, it would depend on how closely those measures resembled each other as to whether they were representative or not.
    If the majority accept a small to medium amount of austerity, it does not give a mandate to a party with large austerity cuts.
    Additionally to that, we do not know the actual intentions of the voters, since we can't know for sure how many supported all of a particular parties manifesto and how many mearly chose a party who represented more of their wishes than others on different issues.
     
  29. domtheone

    domtheone
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    No party had a mandate for large austerity cuts.

    Nor have we had large austerity cuts.

    Just half measures.
     
  30. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    No party has ever won more than 50% of the available vote, only 2 parties/elections have ever won more 50% of the turnout vote.

    Even one of Tony Blair's majorities was won on a smaller national vote than the Tories. The system isn't fair, but only one side seems to have a problem with the result, rather than concentrating the ire on the system itself.

    With PR the tories would still be in power, no matter how you look at it, so it's all a moot point covered in sour grapes.
     

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