Are we just idiots?

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy & Energy Saving' started by aventhusiast, Sep 17, 2007.

  1. aventhusiast

    aventhusiast
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    It makes me really mad about all this harping on about global warming. Why I get annoyed is because our government/politicians are treating us like idiots & not educating people about it, just pointing at polar bears, cycling to work (woopee) & intsalling pointless wind 'turbines' on their houses.

    Now I dont mind recycling because when I see my recycle box full of glass, metal & paper I feel happy that it's not going to a landfill. This makes complete sense.

    BUT it takes the biscuit that I'm being made to feel like a 'bad person' (& taxed for the priveledge) WHEN NOBODY HAS MADE A GOOD SCIENTIFIC CASE TO ME, EDUCATING ME, & BRINGING ME ON BOARD. Is it too much to ask for the government to state it's case? At the moment I'm enclined to agree with the sceptics and say that it's natural for the worlds climate to change through time (doesent everything?)(would it not be more bizarre for the climate to stay the same :rolleyes:) (has'nt there been hotter periods and ice ages waaaaaay before the industrial age?).

    I am a sceptic, the biggest cases stated to me all tell me that it's a natural phenomenon and the worlds sea & volcanoes dwarf mans output of C02 anyway. I have no idea if this is true but thats my point. Wheres the case from the Government educating me? Until then, and unless the case seems plausable I will remain a sceptic, be taxed throught the roof, made to feel bad just for running a car, using the stove & surviving the rat race that we all have to conform to.

    Whatever happened to public information? Maybe it's out there somewhere but I don't know, isn't the point that it should find you anyway, the taxman has no trouble sending us stuff, how about even a simple leaflet/booklet with proven facts?

    My point is that tax is not the answer, pointing fingers is not the answer, education is. Where are the REAL FACTS & why have they not been posted through my door? As I stated before, the tax man finds my letter box, it's very convenient that these things do not. I cant help but feel like I'm being treated as nothing more than an IDIOT.

    If my bins will be collected once a fortnight and not once a week, wheres the reduction in my council tax? Oh, I fogot I'm an idiot.

    If I sell my house & get charged for the 'HIP', why when I buy one thats 'HIP Approved' do I not get the fee back less the consultants charges for being green? Oh I forgot again, I'm an idiot.

    I could go on but I hope you see my frustration/point of view. It's just crap that you have to feel like public enemy number one just using the day to day methods of survival in the UK today. Atleast explain to me EXACTLY why. I'm sure more could be done by just treating people like people than just taxing before non-compliance. Fixed penalties would be a much better solution in my opinion for serial offenders, at least give people the chance to comply & not treat us like morons. They talk about hearts & minds for foriegn policy but I think they should apply the same practice to our own population with these sorts of issues.

    Any thoughts? There must be a better way to go about this issue.
     
  2. RMCF

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    Over the last year or so I have started to disbelieve all the hype about GW.

    For me, there is too much money to be made from it for it to be 100% true.

    Governments are using it to tax us some more, and I do not think that they are 100% serious about tackling any problem, should it actually exist at all.

    I saw a few doc's and read some newspaper articles by people in science who claim that it is a natural phenomenon, and mostly affected by the sun and not humans.

    I just think that it has been hyped up by Gov to keep the 'culture of fear' at its peak, plus as I said to get money from us.

    For example, and I have said this a few times on this site, if the threat was as critical as some are telling us (if we don't turn it around in the next 50yrs we could kill the planet) then how come draconian measures aren't being introduced NOW to save us all?

    Why are car manufacturers allowed to produce 5litre cars, huge 4x4s that people don't need etc. A car can carry 4 adults with a 1.1 engine, so why aren't car engine sizes capped? Its simple, because you can tax 4x4s more, 3 litre cars more etc.

    And I also read here in NI recently that up to 60% of all recycleable waste put into recycling bins end up in landfill. So if we try to separate it all, whats the point if they just bury it.

    Mankind doesn't care about the environment - and its time we faced up to it.
     
  3. njp

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    It isn't "the government's case". It's the case made by the world's leading climate scientists, in thousands of peer-reviewed scientific publications from all around the globe, and as reviewed periodically by the IPCC.

    I appreciate your desire to be spoon-fed it in bite-sized chunks, along with your 5-a-day government-approved fruit and vegetable requirement, but since most of the information is freely available to you from the comfort of your armchair, don't you think you could make a bit of effort yourself?

    And you imagine that climate scientists don't know about climate changes in the past? You think that, rather than being the life-blood of their discipline, this had all somehow passed them by? You only know about past climate changes because of the work of the people whose science you now dismiss. Think about that.

    It isn't. These "facts" are commonly stated by people who have no understanding of natural CO2 fluxes. Huge amounts of CO2 do indeed flow in both directions every day, but what matters for the climate is the accumulation of CO2 in the atmosphere over time, and isotope analysis confirms the fossil fuel origins of this "additional" CO2. Rather than make vague assertions about volcanoes, we have scientists who study them and make actual measurements. And they tell us that worlwide volcanic CO2 emissions are about 1% of human CO2 emissions. A major eruption could change that for a while, but these are rare and short-lived events, and are in any case accompanied by emissions which have the opposite, cooling effect.
     
  4. njp

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    And if you saw a documentary or read an article saying that man never landed on the moon, would you immediately believe that too?

    I really hope you are wrong, because eventually we will have no choice but to face up to it! The environment is rather important to us. It's where we live.
     
  5. simonoaks

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    want a bet ?
     
  6. Stephen Wilde

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    All your points are true, njp, but they give a false impression of completeness and certainty in the scenario being put forward by all those peer reviewed scientists.
    The original poster is correctly pointing out the discrepancy between the alleged certainty on the part of scientists as against the rather limited worldwide concern on the part of most policymakers.
    If the level of certainty were as great as you aver then indeed the policy measures described in the original post would have been in place already with no resistance from anyone except a few anarchic types.
     
  7. simonoaks

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    njp, this is a bit harsh, as his point is a valid one. Whilst your patronising response to one idividual on a personal level might get the idividual to do as you suggest; this is not a solution for the masses.

    It does not need patronising information releases from the Government as with the "5-a-day" campaign. But it is essential to educate people, with solid facts and easily explained scientific findings (most can handle it) so that people understand the resposibility they have and how inclusive they are to the solution.

    The way this issue is currently being dealt with is alienating people and more worringly, creating apathy towards the cause. The biggest threat to the environment is not CO2, it is apathy.

    But then, if we are really honest, do we REALLY have faith in the fact that humans will change their ways for the sake of the planet? It's just not going to happen is it?

    So, I will have to stick to my theory that nature will sort itself (us) out in its own way. Whether it be a one off catastrophe, a cheaky little virus or global warming (to wipe us out or at least dramatically reduce numbers). It will then have a clean slate and stabalise. Of course, the fact is, everything has to come to an end sometime; even the Earth when the Sun implodes.
     
  8. njp

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    I disagree. I would say that the near-certainty is that the planet is warming as a result of anthropogenic CO2 emissions. Where there is uncertainty is in the global and regional consequences of that planetary warming.

    That's a rather naive interpretation. I refer you to the apocryphal (because it isn't actually true!) frog in a pan of slowly warming water. It's all quite comfortable at the moment, isn't it? And politicians are creatures whose natural horizons rarely extend much beyond the next term in office.
     
  9. andykn

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    Your faith in the desire of our politicians to put our long term welfare before their short term electability is most touching.
     
  10. njp

    njp
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    But when the Government tries to do this, they are accused of propagandising. Hasn't a copy of Al Gore's movie been sent to every school? I still haven't seen it, but reviews (those from credible sources!) suggest he gets the science mostly right. Can you imagine the uproar if the govenment decreed it should be shown on every TV channel?

    What we definitely don't need are any more concerts with empty-headed celebrities conveying their complete lack of concern and/or knowledge on the subject to the masses.

    What do you suggest?
     
  11. Stephen Wilde

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    If the science were as certain as some believe the politicians would have no difficulty getting votes for action as draconian as necessary.

    There is a sizeable dissonance between the protestations of scientific certainty and the concrete evidence that would be required to convince the majority of it's accuracy. Even people of limited scientific knowledge are able to perceive that dissonace.

    Add to that the painfully disruptive and potentially counterproductive so called remedies and that explains the resistance which is developing despite a few strategic sops to the general principle by politicians in some nations.
     
  12. stratagem

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    I would be a little more convinced on our government's true desire to have us reduce CO2 if VAT was removed from home insulation products.

    Additionally, should you insulate your house fully, the local council will enjoy the extra value as a higher council tax.
     
  13. simonoaks

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    Well it is good to educate on issues at school level, but I was under the impression that we need action by this generation, not the next ?

    I have not seen it, except bits of it on the C4 programme that "proved" GW was not happening (not starting that debate, just can't remember the name of the programme).

    I have not seen anything substantial from Government or media (except annoying Z list "celebrities" jumping on the band wagon). Seeing them makes me wish the earth would hurry up and kill us !!

    It is difficult, as most people beleive it is natural, and whilst it is a major issue to you, the masses are more concerned with day to day issues such as health, crime, immigration, justice system etc.

    All I can say is, IF GW or MMGW exsists, we are well and truely Fcked
     
  14. stratagem

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    It had to happen someday, something we can all agree on. :)
     
  15. Stephen Wilde

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    Agreed.:D
     
  16. aventhusiast

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    Yes the worlds leading scientists, who I'm sure are the key advisors to governments worldwide (last time I checked Gordon Brown was not a scientist but I could be wrong), whom then have (in my opinion) a duty to educate the people, which is not happening. It's a scientists job to run the tests e.t.c but the governments to use the results and address the nation with them.


    Is that an offer? :rotfl: Seriously, I really cant see your problem with wanting information from the government, as they are the ones who have access to the worlds leading climate scientists and chair meetings with them. Most people cant pick up a phone and speak to professor such & such. The government have a responsibility to pass this on. I cant see your problem with this anyway seeing as you are in favour of people changing for the better? Why would you not want the people in charge to educate the people with the best information available.


    OK I've thought about that for a nano second :rolleyes: I never said I dismissed it, I've stated that I just have not heard their case yet. Think about that. :rolleyes:

    Thanks for the info (seriously), would it not be a positive move to summarise facts like this with a few bullet points, some statistics e.t.c and educate people with? It's unrealistic to think all of a sudden people from all walks of life are going to go searching for information by scientists whom they have never heard of & sift through pages upon pages of long words they would have to study a degree to even slightly understand. Again I can not see (other than jumping to conclusions) why a pro enviromentally friendly person such as yourself can pick so much at what I posted. I've said that I am a sceptic as I've heard that side of the story but would welcome some accurate information from the government. So I guess from what you write that the environment would be much better off with less education? Seems very strange.
     
  17. johntheexpat

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    Part of the problem with educating the public is that a little 'education' is a dangerous thing. And Joe Public can be very lemming like in his behaviour, you only have to witness the Northern Rock debacle to see that. If JP suddenly realises the potential gravity of the problem, then needless panic will set it and escalate exponentially, causing more problems than it will solve. A gentle groundswell of awareness, but not so gentle we eventually miss the boat.
     
  18. simonoaks

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    I think it would make for the most fascinating scientific experiment in history, to do nothing and see what happens.
     
  19. Nimby

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    Northern Rock is just healthy skepticism for the lies usually dished out in political sound bites. Once bitten several times shy. Why should the public trust the government on AGW either? They can't be trusted on anything else. Nor can the opposition.
     
  20. stratagem

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    How true, the government first said trust us it's fine, the queues got bigger.
     
  21. Nimby

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    According to today's radio the main problem is that the banks don't trust each other any more so they won't lend money to each other. What an admission! :devil:
     

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