Question Are these Denon Audyssey settings correct - Crossover frequency etc? 200hz Surround Speakers?!

rmonkey100

Active Member
I have a 5.1 set up with Yamaha NSF51 Standing floor speakers at front and Yamaha NSP51 speakers for the Centre and Surround Left & Right, also got a Yamaha subwoofer


Running Audyssey it configures it as Front standing speakers large speakers with 40hz crossover,

The centre speakers as small with 120hz crossover

and the Surround L+R as small with 200hz crossover?


does 200hz sound off for the surround speakers?


Ideally I want all the bass going into the subwoofer so i can contorl the volume


I have changed all speakers to Small and all crossovers to 80hz.


Is this okay?


Thanks
 

gibbsy

Moderator
The floorstanding speakers roll off of 40hz sounds about right. The centre is a smaller unit with smaller drivers. Positioning of the centre can have an impact with picking up reflections so a roll off of 120hz is not unusual, as is the roll offs for the surrounds. Run Audyssey again and make sure your first position is correct and that the mic is vertical.

If the readings remain the same then you should not drop the crossover on the centre and surrounds but leave them as Audyssey has detected. Raise the left and right to 80hz.

A photograph of your room and speaker positions, especially the centre, will help to tell a story.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It is recommended that you not manually set crossovers lower than the roll off an AV receiver measures for them during calibration. This measurement would be what determines what size the receiver sets speakers and the associated crossover. It is perfectly acceptable to override the size settings and set them as SMALL and or set crossovers higher than the settings resulting from the calibration, but you shouldn't set crossover points lower than what the calibration determined as the roll off for the speakers.

Your rear crossovers do seem rather high though. It is hard to determine why this may be the case, but could be due to an inacxxurate calibration, faulty speakers at=re abnormal room acoustics?
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
Thanks for the response, heres some pictures of the layout

layout1.jpg


layout2.jpg


Okay so front standing L + R speakers as you can see, the centre speaker is sat behind the tv, some of it pokes out through the gap under. The sub is just on the floor next to the front right speaker

Back of room are my R + L surround speakers.

So the calibration:

Front Speakers - Large - 40hz

Centre - Small - 120hz

Surround R + L - Small - 200hz


I have changed them all to Small and 80hz, to me it sounds fine. but I can try the original settings again.


I ideally want full control of the Bass so I can lower the volume. I tried this set up without a sub, and it set the front speakers as large and full range or something, and the centre and surroudns same as before. This meant all the bass was going to the standing floor speakers which sounded nice, but I had no control, and in my current setting, attic room, terraced house I've always kept the sub woofer nearly off so the bass doesn't annoy others.


So I added the sub back in so i have control again, i have it on about 5-10% volume setting so it gives off a very subtle bass.

If i change the front speakers back to large 40hz, centre to 120hz and surrounds to 200hz again, would it distribute the bass through them again, or would the bass be mainly in the sub still so I have full control?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The sub should be calibrated to the same SPL as your main speakers. Volume is determined by the master volume which would effect both the passive speakers and your sub equally. All you are doing it portraying the audio with the lower frequencies missing or not being portrayed as intended.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
The sub should be calibrated to the same SPL as your main speakers. Volume is determined by the master volume which would effect both the passive speakers and your sub equally. All you are doing it portraying the audio with the lower frequencies missing or not being portrayed as intended.
So you're saying I should change the cross of frequencys back to 40hz, 120hz and 200hz?

is ther much difference keeping the front standing speakers in Small as opposed to Large?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I'm saying that the way in which you are using the sub is incorrect. This has nothing to do with the crossover or speaker sizes. The sub is there to better portray the lower end frequencies and not to facilitate diminishing their portrayal. If you want to listen at lower volumes then simply turn down the master volume on the AV receiver.

The speakers would all be nest set as being SMALL irespective of their size or capabilities. The front left and right would be best set to 80Hz. The centre and the surrounds should be set lower than the calibration saet them.

By setting speakers as being SMALL you allow the crossovers to redirect the harder to amolify lower frequencies to the sub for it to handle. Subwoofers are usually better equipped than the passive speakers to handle the lower end frequencies. You also improve the upper frequency headroom associatted with the passive speakers by relieving the AV receiver the task of having to amplify the harder to amplify lower end. THe passive speakers can be driven to higher volumes without distortion than they would if treating them as full range.
 
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rmonkey100

Active Member
I'm saying that the way in which you are using the sub is incorrect. This has nothing to do with the crossover or speaker sizes. The sub is there to better portray the lower end frequencies and not to facilitate diminishing their portrayal. If you want to listen at lower volumes then simply turn down the master volume on the AV receiver.

The speakers would all be nest set as being SMALL irespective of their size or capabilities. The front left and right would be best set to 80Hz. The centre and the surrounds should be set lower than the calibration saet them.

By setting speakers as being SMALL you allow the crossovers to redirect the harder to amolify lower frequencies to the sub for it to handle. Subwoofers are usually better equipped than the passive speakers to handle the lower end frequencies. You also improve the upper frequency headroom associatted with the passive speakers by relieving the AV receiver the task of having to amplify the harder to amplify lower end. THe passive speakers can be driven to higher volumes without distortion than they would if treating them as full range.
Thanks I think I understand what you're saying.

So the front speakers I have set at 80hz and small,

What frequency would you set the centre and surround speakers at, given the calibrator put them as 120hz centre and 200hz surround?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The centre and rears should be designated SMALL and you shouldn't set their associated crossovers lower than where the receiver measured their roll offs to be. This means that the centre should have a crossover no lower than 120Hz and the surrounds no lower than 200Hz. The issue with this is the roll off being measured for the surrounds. This is inordinately high and suggests that there's something going on in your room or with your setup that isn't quite right?
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
The centre and rears should be designated SMALL and you shouldn't set their associated crossovers lower than where the receiver measured their roll offs to be. This means that the centre should have a crossover no lower than 120Hz and the surrounds no lower than 200Hz. The issue with this is the roll off being measured for the surrounds. This is inordinately high and suggests that there's something going on in your room or with your setup that isn't quite right?
Okay I get you thanks, I'll set the centre back to 120hz,

The surrounds i am not sure. they are brand new, I just set them up today...? generally what would surround frequency usually be?

I am getting some atmos speakers soon too to sit on the front standing speakers, so I will be running the calibration again also.

Also regarding audio processing it's self, I find DTS Neural X is better at upcaling Stereo Sources to 5.1, it keeps the dialogue generally in the centre speaker, Dolby Surround tends to put dialogue all accross the front speakers, and in the surround speakers which sounds a bit odd coming through all 4 speaker at the same time.

So if I use DTS Neural X, and then play a native 5.1 track, say DD+ or DTS. will it play the original audio as intended, or will it still process it and move it away from its original channels etc?

I find Auto setting uses DD + DD Suround, even on 5.1 sources and changes it quite alot compared to Direct audio. THis is using a new Denon AVR
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
If using Yamaha NSB51 surrounds then these speakers are rated with a frequency response of 69 Hz–36 kHz. You'd ordinarilly expect the AV receiver to measure their roll off to be in the region of 80Hz if not below that. It is stange that the receiver is measuring their roll as high as it is.

Similarly, the rated abilities of your center also suggest that they should theoretically have a lower frequency roll off than the 120Hz the AV receiver is detecting. The NSC51 is rated with a frequency response of 70 Hz–36 kHz.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
If using Yamaha NSB51 surrounds then these speakers are rated with a frequency response of 69 Hz–36 kHz. You'd ordinarilly expect the AV receiver to measure their roll off to be in the region of 80Hz if not below that. It is stange that the receiver is measuring their roll as high as it is.

Similarly, the rated abilities of your center also suggest that they should theoretically have a lower frequency roll off than the 120Hz the AV receiver is detecting. The NSC51 is rated with a frequency response of 70 Hz–36 kHz.
Okay I see, so what would you ideally expect calibration to throw out, 40-80hz for the front speakers, 80hz for the centre and 80hz for the surround?

Maybe its just the layout of my room and where I watch from generally/ had the mic set up
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
so what would you ideally expect calibration to throw out, 40-80hz for the front speakers, 80hz for the centre and 80hz for the surround?
Yes, something close to that given the rated frequency response of the centre and the surrounds.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Your surrounds are certainly getting boundary reflections for being close to the side wall and by the look of it the ceiling as well. I think those positions will have a bearing on the roll off. Can't quite see where your centre is exactly.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
Your surrounds are certainly getting boundary reflections for being close to the side wall and by the look of it the ceiling as well. I think those positions will have a bearing on the roll off. Can't quite see where your centre is exactly.
Yeah I think its the room layout, since its just a bedroom, the centre speaker is literally just sat behind the TV. Hopefully my atmos speakers will work well when I get them!
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
With the centre speaker behind the TV, all of the dialogue will be going into the back of the TV and not into your ears.

If you can't get the centre speaker into line of sight (hearing) then best to not have it. If you deselect it in the speaker assign settings, set it to none, the AVR will mix all of the centre channel dialogue into the front left and right speakers. Give that a try and see how it sounds.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Room is definitely having it's say in those roll offs, especially with the centre behind the TV. Take up Ramble's advice if you cannot put the centre in front of the TV.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
Even though its behind the TV it sounds fine to me still, everything is crystal clear, there's a gap under the TV so some of it comes straight through anyway..

Think it's worth putting it in front of the TV and rerunning calibration, then putting it back behind?
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
Think it's worth putting it in front of the TV and rerunning calibration, then putting it back behind?
No. Once you have run the calibration, you need to leave the speaker placement and room as is, or re-run the calibration if anything changes.
 

CaptainJames

Active Member
Just as a general point, being new to Audyssey I find it rather flaky and limited compared to Pioneer MCACC which I was accustomed to.
I ran it twice, and got different crossover results on each, so go figure. On the first run it set crossover on my Atmos speakers at 120hz, and second run at 150hz. Fronts were set to large /40hz as was centre. Surrounds came out as small/40hz!

I changed the fronts and centre to "small" and crossover to 80hz for them, left the surrounds as small and changed crossover to 80hz also, and left the Atmos crossover at 150hz. I struggle to see the point of something that ends up with settings so far off what they should be.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
interesting hmm, I guess ill just leave it as it is, as to me, it sounds fine. I'll re run calibration when i get my atmos speakers and see if it throws out strange results again.

so now its

standing fronts - small - 80hz
centre - small - 120hz
surrounds - small - 200hz

changing surrounds to 80hz i struggle to hear a difference?
 

CaptainJames

Active Member
interesting hmm, I guess ill just leave it as it is, as to me, it sounds fine. I'll re run calibration when i get my atmos speakers and see if it throws out strange results again.

so now its

standing fronts - small - 80hz
centre - small - 120hz
surrounds - small - 200hz

changing surrounds to 80hz i struggle to hear a difference?
You are not going to hear a massive difference on surrounds due to their limited contribution overall. I would imagine it would only be action blockbusters with plenty of explosions that you might notice a lack of bass @ 80hz.
 

rmonkey100

Active Member
You are not going to hear a massive difference on surrounds due to their limited contribution overall. I would imagine it would only be action blockbusters with plenty of explosions that you might notice a lack of bass @ 80hz.
Okay thanks, I shall just leave them as they are then!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The fact that the surrounds aren't portraying the lower frequencies is neither here nor there if you've a sub in your setup. The crossovers are redirecting the lower frequencies to the sub for it to portray. The issue is why the calibration is measuring the roll off as high as it is measuring it when the speakers should be able to portray lower than determined frequencies? Yes, leave them set to 200Hz ubtil you can determine why Audyssey is setting these crossovers this high.

I've full range surrounds and still set them as being SMALL with a 90Hz crossover. This is depite the calibration determining that they are LARGE and setting their crossover at 40Hz.

Your isasue is why the calibration is measuring the roll off at 200Hz?
 
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rmonkey100

Active Member
The fact that the surrounds aren't portraying the lower frequencies is neither here nor there if you've a sub in your setup. The crossovers are redirecting the lower frequencies to the sub for it to portray. The issue is why the calibration is measuring the roll off as high as it is measuring it when the speakers should be able to portray lower than determined frequencies? Yes, leave them set to 200Hz ubtil you can determine why Audyssey is setting these crossovers this high.

I've full range surrounds and still set them as being SMALL with a 90Hz crossover. This is depite the calibration determining that they are LARGE and setting their crossover at 40Hz.

Your isasue is why the calibration is measuring the roll off at 200Hz?
Yeah I guess could be anumber of reasons why its rolling off at 200hz, speaker placement, walls near, sound bouncing, mic recording placement. its hard to say, its a weird shaped attic room so it might just be what it deems neccesary for this room.

I'll know when I calibrate again with my atmos speakers when I get them. be interesting to see what it throws out for the atmos speakers too
 

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