Are some Vestel rebadged TV brands better ranges than others?

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
it would be useful if there were some guide on this, it's probably hard to get professional reviews with HDR brightness spec but it's also difficult to know if some of the brand names used are usually better models than others.

The main ones you see in the UK are Hitachi, Toshiba and Techwood, some being exclusive to certain outlets. there are a bunch of others like Alba cello, etc that are likely the same.

Sometimes the 65 Techwood goes down to 540 when ao are doing 10% off, it's tempting as a stopgap without having to get refurbs from ebay selllers. Is the Techwood likely worse than a Toshiba or are you paying extra for a (fake) brand name on top? I know some models specify HDR but it seems unlikely that it would be any good besides maybe wider colour range.

I suppose what I'm asking is if there are any existing guides to vestel rebadges or anyone who has opinions to offer on the issue, thanks in advance........
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
No idea unfortunately, there are a lack of reviews even on lower range TV's from the big brands.

I've been there in the past and bought a Toshiba vestel a few years back but never will again. Not sure if it's too different now.

I personally wouldn't go for less than a Hisense 65N6800 which I recently saw another member found a price for £900 maybe if you get lucky with some retailer discount codes+cashback you can get some more money off that.
 

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
It seems like most average users seem happy enough with the Vestels, it seems like they might be good for non HDR stopgap use as I say, I'd be especially interested if any turn up as refurbs from Richer Sounds or other proper outlets with real 1 year warranty.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
The problem is even TV's beneath £1500 at 65" aren't models that have HDR for any more than compatibility purposes. It makes it seem like every TV has HDR now but really all it means is every TV accepts the signal.

Once you dive beneath the lower end TV's such as the Hisense you really take a gamble with quality overall, the TV's are probably a big step below those that are good value and branded in the low end. Although the brands do also make some bad TV's too in the lower end.

But who knows, you may be happy. I just personally think you often see decent user reviews on those TV's because you get what you pay. There is also the fact people may have low expectations.

The Toshiba I bought and quickly relegated to the bedroom. Then I later gave it to my sister for her bedroom. It was awful.
 

Hixs

Distinguished Member
Things are cheap for a reason...

A 65" at that price will likely have an awful picture along with a number of issues like DSE and very poor screen uniformity . Basically to buy that set, your only goal is to own a 65" tv.
 

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
Currently am using an LG42LH3000 that's getting on for 10 years old. If I ended up with a 65 inch Vestel with comparable image quality in the 500 pound (or ideally sub if refurbed) then I'd be happy as a stopgap for a couple of years.

I wouldn't want to spend serious money on a 65 as I really want a 75, I've seen them, they're amazing in terms of immersion.

The problem is there is no real stop gapping on 75 which means you may as well spend extra on HDR which leads to a few options as I see it)

2000 pound bracket on low to medium range HDR model, MU8000 or Xe90 but I don't think it will drop that low.

2000 pound bracket on refurbed decent 75 inch HDR model, this is by far my favourite option, Richer Sounds were offering a KS8000 refurbed at 1600, I didn't realise how good a deal this was until after it sold, if another comes back I'll jump on it straight away.

3000 pound bracket on new decent 75 inch HDR Xe94 or q8. I'm a bit loathed to do this, I'd only do it with John Lewis 5 year accident cover in the 120 poundish price range. (I don't really want to get involved with home insurance) I don't think the Xe94 will come back anyway, they only dropped it to 3k and then I assume sold out. I couldn't stomach spending this much without some kind of cover, modern TVs seem to crack too easily it's a crazy amount of money to not have some kind of accident cover but also....

....You're essentially spending an extra grand mostly just for decent HDR performance. Is it worth it at this point in time? Haloing/limited brightness compared to mastered spec/format war/bodged DV on Sony etc...

Which then leads to the last option, screw everything and spend as little as possible on a 65 inch and drop a ton of money in a couple of year's time when hopefully the HDR market has sorted itself out....

I'd be interested to briefly know what specifically was bad about the Toshiba if you have the time...
 

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
Things are cheap for a reason...

A 65" at that price will likely have an awful picture along with a number of issues like DSE and very poor screen uniformity . Basically to buy that set, your only goal is to own a 65" tv.
To some extent I would buy just for the size, I'm expecting most TVs to be preferable to projectors with all the god awful issues with unreliability/noise/light control etc. I have a couple of dirt cheap used 720p Business/data projectors I got on ebay I use sometimes just for the sense of scale on movies. They're OK for high contrast content, black levels too bad for much else.
 

Hixs

Distinguished Member
If your only goal is size, crack on. Blurays will be ok, but anything under 1080p will likely look awful.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
The Samsung 75MU7000 is pretty exceptional value if you can get it around £1700 or the Hisense 75N6800 at around £1400.

Those are good stop gaps.

Look out for cashback and retailer discount codes.

The problem is true HDR worth having is not cheap and not really attainable for good value at 75". The Sony XE9005 is the minimum to consider at any size for HDR and at 75" that's a good £2500.

They really need to change the marketing blurb too separate true HDR models from those that really don't do much else but scale down the content. I wish they just didn't bother with HDR on TV's without the hardware to reproduce it at all.

But anyway, I'm rambling on too much. Basically what I wanted to say is it's not with HDR that you take a step down with to the vestel rebrands, unlike with the lower range or mid range to budget it will be general picture quality too. How much or if that step down is worth the cash saved I'm not sure.
 

Hixs

Distinguished Member
So we're talking bad scaling on budget models?
My 4k LG that I just replaced with a 1080p OLED was terrible at upscaling, and that was €2100 when released in 2013.
 

zeppelino

Well-known Member
I’ve read of some Toshiba engineers being kept on. And apparently there’s a Toshiba OLED on the way - which could help with bringing the tech down even further.
 

Loopthrough

Well-known Member
All Vestels are the same no matter which brand you buy. Same boards, same OS speed, same Linux OS (just a different skin and home design) same Mediatek SOC, same panels.

The only differnece is since they got the rights to the Toshiba brand they have attempted higher end models, with better sound and wide colour gamuts etc, but they're still not very good compared to alternatives.

Mostly they use LG and CSOT and AUO cells, but assemble the BLU and panel themselves in house, and brand the panels "Vestel - panel code usually VES-xxxxx".

Vestel have been in the UK since the 80s (seen on "store" budget brands like Saisho, Logik and a few others like that), and make quite "old school" products in terms of assembly and design.

I still wouldn't recommend them, as eveey one I've used or seen has had a horrible, smeary type motion that reminded me of early generation LCDs, and uniformity is not their strong point - and some of their products have been downright appalling!

They do make pretty good Freeview PVRs though. Simple, clear OS and pretty reliable (as found in PVRs under brands sold in Argos exclusively these days).

If you're on a budget, mid-upper Hisense TVs will give you much better performance, features, picture and OS. With TCL now also in the UK, they would also be a better option. Of course, there are also basic ranges from the top 3 too, but just avoid anything basic from LG because of RGBW.

Vestel is like Cello or UMC really.

Toshiba branded Vestels are the only ones where they have slightly different models (and only in the upper ranges). The others, eg a Panasonic 43" Vestel and a Techwood 43" Vestel are exactly the same. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic give the whole TV division to Vestel in the coming years (following Toshiba's example, they seem to be laying the groundwork). It'll be a shame, but not unexpected.

A lot of engineers find Vestel extremely unreliable but I can't substantiate this claim but it's something they'll often say. However, considering they outsell most brands in Europe it's hard to say if it's actually inherent unreliability.

I have experience of the insides of their products and wasn't impressed, personally. Very roughly put together.

Their white goods (Bush, etc) are not much more than toys in my experience but then again the price is extremely low (washers for £120 on sale at Argos etc), so you can't expect much.

A review of a Vestel from a trusted reviewer here.
 
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Analysis

Well-known Member
@Loopthrough great info as always.

I will use this for reference as we sometimes get this question on here about Vestel and the other brands.
 

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
Thanks also for the detail, it's good to clarify that they're mostly the same. The wiki article suggests that the Toshibas come out of a different (ex Toshiba?) plant which would explain if they were a bit better.

Vestel would manufacture TVs bearing the Toshiba brand under a five-year licensing deal with the Japanese corporation's visual solutions division[7] That deal came in the wake of the Japanese electronics corporation's 2015 scandal over the reporting of inflated results. Vestel said it would use Toshiba's plant in Wrocław, Poland to make TVs to be sold as Toshibas and Vestels.

On a related note the Hisense H75N6800UK is currently at 1350 with the limited 10% discount from ao this seems likely the cheapest it will ever be. I think the Mu7000 might be a bit underestimated for HDR here it seems to measure about 700 nits on a 10% window whereas the Hisense only seems to manage about 450 which is too low to be considered meaningfully HDR capable.

Ebuyer are selling the 75mu7000 at 1721 which seems to be cheapest at the moment, they're pricing is a bit random, mostly bad but it's worth keeping an eye on them because sometimes they knock things out too cheap (by mistake?)
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
I think the Mu7000 might be a bit underestimated for HDR here it seems to measure about 700 nits on a 10% window whereas the Hisense only seems to manage about 450 which is too low to be considered meaningfully HDR capable.
Any idea where you got that measurement? rtings.com and here on avf it was rated as around 550 nits only.

The MU7000 is a step up from the lower end TVs in the sense that it has a 120hz panel and it gets slightly brighter but comparing side to side to the Hisense N6800 I'm not sure that would even be noticeable (circa 100~ nits difference).

There is a lot that constitutes to good picture quality on a TV and a lot more that constitutes to good picture quality and the MU7000 doesn't tick any more boxes really than the low range. It is certainly not a TV someone should be getting with HDR in mind in my opinion.

If you think about how HDR content is mastered at up to 10,000 nits in the case of Dolby Vision content having a measely 550 nits is not going to result in a good experience. It may be on content that is mastered at lower nits but it won't be if the TV has to take a higher nit count and compress it down to those brightness figures. What you end up with is a battle between losing detail in brights and the picture being too dark, better explained in this video:

So what constitutes to a good HDR picture from an LCD?

Samsung MU7000/Hisense N6800:
colour gamut - Decent for todays standards.
colour volume - Below Average for todays standards
local dimming - Very poor
peak brightness - poor

But when you look at more capable HDR TVs for example the new Samsung QLEDs or Sony's XE90/XF90/XE93 those areas are all good or excellent compared to other TVs.

And this is comparing it by todays standards, we still haven't got TVs that fulfill every HDR component, we still don't have TVs capable of more than 4000 nits and we still don't have TVs filling 100% colour coverage or volume in the rec2020 HDR colour gamut.

I know I keep going on about it in this thread and forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems one of the reasons you have been looking at Vestel TVs is because you want a post HDR stop gap TV. My point is simply this; HDR is still in its infancy and comes at a heavy premium. TVs in the low range above in quality to the Vestel models, even models in the mid range are not considered to be HDR capable, they are only able to accept the signal and do their best with it.
 

Ensign Skippy

Standard Member
I see your point, Hisense probably makes a better stopgap, Richer sounds once had the
n5300 65 inch at about 550 refurbed I think, this is a fairly rare price point on a branded 65 inch from a trusted outlet though.

On a related note, Sony were showing the 75xe94 refurbed for 2450 today only but it sold by mid afternoon. I'd probably want it to drop a couple of hundred more but it may never happen.

http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/samsung-ue49mu7000t

My own measurements of the TV’s brightness using a 10% full white HDR window delivered a figure of just over 700 nits. That’s not 1000 nits, obviously, but the screen will go brighter over smaller areas, and my measured figure is unprecedentedly high for the set’s price point. By comparison, Sony’s recently tested KD-55XE8596 only delivers 430 nits on a 10% window.
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/samsung-ue49mu7000t#1FH2QmeB9PlxGDFO.99
 

Analysis

Well-known Member
My point is simply this; HDR is still in its infancy and comes at a heavy premium. TVs in the low range above in quality to the Vestel models, even models in the mid range are not considered to be HDR capable, they are only able to accept the signal and do their best with it.
You are completely correct Dodge in regards to HDR, and HDR is a big problem due to the extra costs to a end user, it''s all about money at the end of the day, and if you don't stick to a budget and do your research beforehand, you can get seriously ripped off, some people will listen and some people don't, it's their choice at the end of the day.

We have many new formats competing for a share of this market, a format war as such, a bit like Blu Ray - HDDVD, VHS - Betamax, CD-ROM - LaserDisc, you catch my drift.

I've seen this all before as the years have gone buy and know how it all turns out at the end.

Content being mastered at completely different nit levels (10,000 nits) and tonemapping trying to fit into the space provided by a low range backlight (350 nits), the maths don't fit!, but they still put HDR on the box, we have had some discussion about this over on the XE70 owner's thread recently, plus their is a lot of misleading marketing information as well claiming this tv has a 10 bit panel, when it simply doesn't in reality.

Sony have also now complicated the situation in regards to Dolby Vision metadata, all devices will need to be able to read this, costing the other makers time and money, most won't bother isolating Sony with this approach.

From my understanding having heard some people talking about this in length, LG are the only ones doing something about HDR10 at the metadata level, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Phillips and the rest are turning their backs, again a lot of lazyness is going on.

HDR could end up like 3D did later down the road, only time will tell.

There are also a lot of deceitful and greedy practices going on in the industry at the moment in regards to 2% and 10% windows, ISF calibrators will know this, nits in a general sense in regards to ratings published are a lot lower in reality, rtings.com is a good place to see this within their reviews.

In my point of view SDR is the common standard and has been around a long time.
 

zeppelino

Well-known Member
Sony have also now complicated the situation in regards to Dolby Vision metadata, all devices will need to be able to read this, costing the other makers time and money, most won't bother isolating Sony with this approach.

From my understanding having heard some people talking about this in length, LG are the only ones doing something about HDR10 at the metadata level, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Phillips and the rest are turning their backs, again a lot of lazyness is going on.
I think you’ve got this wrong. Samsung are not supporting DV and are working on HDR10+.
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
i keep seeing this statement and im sat in front of a 75" lg lcd tv which has rgbw and the picture is absolutely fantastic.
Indeed, its a non issue. Its one of those things blown out of proportion online, similar with OLED burn in. When most people don't even view close enough to notice FHD then it certainly isn't a big problem having that pixel structure.

I have even heard people use them as PC displays with text and have no complaints and this is certainly something people seem to consider a no-no with WRGB displays.
 

zeppelino

Well-known Member
Not sure what Ninja meant but I am guessing he is talking about the Dynamic Meta Data mapping that the LGs OLEDs use with Dynamic Contrast turned on. Essentially turning any static meta data source in to dynamic anyway.
Do not want this kind of thing. So an algorithm decides what should be added to the source material rather than the creator? No thanks
 

Dodgexander

Moderator
Do not want this kind of thing. So an algorithm decides what should be added to the source material rather than the creator? No thanks
On a TV with limited brightness this actually works very, very well. Of course having dynamic data at the source is better but with some sources that isn't possible. If you look at professional calibrators reviews of the LG OLEDs this is actually a setting they recommend keeping on which is unusual when traditionally dynamic contrast is best turned off.
 

Analysis

Well-known Member
I think you’ve got this wrong. Samsung are not supporting DV and are working on HDR10+.
I know Samsung aren't supporting DV, if you read it carefully I am referring to HDR10, this being the most common standard, and Dodge is completely right in regards to how LG are handling the metadata.
 

Analysis

Well-known Member
i keep seeing this statement and im sat in front of a 75" lg lcd tv which has rgbw and the picture is absolutely fantastic.
The whole RGB - RGBW comparison has been debated to death, so won't go into it.

It all depends on distance at the end of the day but if you compare a RGB to RGBW - WRGB side by side and know what you are looking for in terms of sharpness to detail, there is a big difference, text does appear more jagged however RGBW - WRGB is more green on the environment as it uses less power and it costs less to manufacture together with IPS, or so what I'm told, but this usually indicates more bad screen uniformity issues.

I've seen OLED screens with terrible bad screen uniformity, most recently on a LG B7, which when you are paying a premium you expect some kind of level of Quality Control, but it appears this is not the case, again it's a lottery.
 

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