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Are progressive panels the future?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by gammmmo, Jun 24, 2003.

  1. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    Been lurking on this forum for a while now (and found it really informative and has potentially saved me alot of money) but have not posted until now.

    I've been giving serious thought to getting a plasma for a few months now and saw a great demo a while back of a Fujitsu panel at Sevenoaks Hifi in Bristol connected to a Denon 2800 mk2 DVD player (I think). The picture quality was astonishing and it was then that I found out about progressive scan.

    However, after having some research here, is it not true that Fujistu use only ALIS panels and so what I saw was probably not a de-interlaced image? Same goes for the Hitachi 42PD3000 which I thought would be a great buy until I found out that it too used an ALIS panel.

    Do people think that progressive scan will become the norm? I'd be very interested to hear from someone who has compared say the 42PD3000 (which seems to be generally well thought of) with a PAL progressive scan image on say the 433MXE.

    It just seems to me that we might be on the verge of a raft of new panels that will display an NTSC and PAL progressive image. This seems more likely to me that simply better interlaced images coming along from ever better DVD players.
     
  2. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi,

    Fujitsu also do the non-ALIS 42VHA20 model which gets good reviews in the US. I think it's based on Panasonic glass but with more inputs. I'm sure PAL PS will become a fairly common feature by the end of the year, so more plasmas will become PAL PS compatible. ALIS panels run best when fed interlaced signals.

    Steve
     
  3. kocl

    kocl
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    But are the alis panels a good choice or not?
     
  4. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Certainly designed to be a more cost effective choice of plasma.

    For information for and against ALiS, try searching this forum for ALiS. There are plenty of threads covering all views.

    StooMonster
     
  5. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    The Fuji panel I saw in Sevenoaks was not the one cited above and so the same image on something like the 433MXE under PAL prog could've been even better and believe me that would be incredible.

    I don't think the ALIS panels are a good choice - and this is coming from someone who was seriously thinking of buying the Hitachi, which I think has raised the bar in terms of value for money.

    Progressive is being touted as intrinsically better. At the moment there are non prog scan plasmas, NTSC ones and PAL/NTSC ones - a real minefield for the average punter especially when for many people, like me, this will involve buying a new DVD player (and a pretty good one at that because most of the 'cheap'' ones don't seem to cut it) and maybe new amp (to cope with lip sync issues). I've changed my mind and decided to wait a little longer!!!
     
  6. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Almost all plasma screens (even much older ones) accept and display both PAL and NTSC progressive signals with no problems.

    The key exceptions are PioHDE model (Pio with tuner) that does not display PAL progressive, and ALiS panels that are interlaced anyway. Interlaced plasmas is a new idea, and is designed primarily as a cost saving feature; no matter what marketing or PR says.

    StooMonster
     
  7. kocl

    kocl
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    The pio433HDE doens't accept a pal Prog???
     
  8. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Pioneer HDE are infamous for not accepting PAL progressive signals -- one of the reasons people buy MXE (industrial) models instead.

    StooMonster
     
  9. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    Thanks for that StooMonster. That is surprising to me - the marketing blurb for most plasmas does not IMO make that clear, in fact what you are saying is that for any non ALIS (or non HDE) plasma the 'feature list' could and perhaps should include 'PAL/NTSC prog scan compatible' - I'm surprised more manufacturers don't do this.... ?? ????
     
  10. kocl

    kocl
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    maybe its a stupid question, but here it goes.
    the alis pannels accept or not a pal prog signal (ex: Philips 42PF9965)
     
  11. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    yes they do accept a PAL prog signal but because its an ALIS panel it can only DISPLAY the image by interlaced means - so you derive no benefit....that being said with an ALIS panel like the Hitachi the interlaced image is supposed to be extremely good although IMO it cannot be as good as a prog scan image.
     
  12. kocl

    kocl
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    if its not indicated thats a ali panel, how base on it characteristics i would know.
     
  13. StooMonster

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    ALiS (Alternate Lighting of Surfaces) are only made by Fujitsu and Hitachi and they claim their resolution to be 1024x1024.

    However, this is the interlaced resolution and if you are feeding a PC signal to the display, 1024x512 should be used.

    For detail check this thread Pros and Cons of ALiS Panels

    StooMonster
     
  14. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    get the model number and do some research on the web or contact the manufacturer!!
     
  15. kocl

    kocl
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    Thanks. the only plasma non-ali that doesn't accept prog pal, its the pioneer or there more suprises.
    I look at at jvc with an excelent image, bit seems nobody ever seen it.
     
  16. StooMonster

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    I think they used to -- but they have done for so long now that no one bothers anymore. Except to say that it's usually in the list of modes they can display, if it says 576p or 625p then that's PAL progressive compatible.

    That's pretty much every screen available except PioHDE models.

    Ivojo Multimedia who are an excellent dealer, have all this resolution information on their web-site (and possibly even highlight in big bold letters models that are PAL prog).

    StooMonster
     
  17. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    :hiya:

    For me the big advantage with ALiS screens is that you don't get flicker it's steady as a rock ;)

    I don't know what it is but some people have lip sync problems with their plasmas,i've got the hitachi 42 pma400e, tosh sd900e,sky and don't get any lip sync problems.

    So i'm glad i don't have to folk out pounds on iscan or time delay units.

    LONG LIVE ALiS PLASMAS!!!!


    dvd :smashin:
     
  18. kocl

    kocl
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    the lip sync issue only appears on ALIS panels?
     
  19. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    I've had my hitachi for 3 weeks and i have not seen any lip sync problems.

    dvd :)
     
  20. gammmmo

    gammmmo
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    Going back to my comment about manufacturers/vendors not making things clear, take techtronics.com for example, they include more info than most on their site re: prog scan compatibility and screen res, but IMO are missing out info. They rightly specify Panasonic panels as prog scan compatible but not the Toshibas (same panel?) and there is a Fujitsu (ALIS panel?) down as PAL/NTSC progressive compatible etc etc. In the marketing blurb for the Hitachi 42PD3000 it says prog scan compatible but so what? - its still an ALIS. Whilst I realise people need to research things on their own, it IS confusing...
     
  21. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    :hiya:


    The tosh is a clone of the panny5.



    dvd :)
     
  22. CarlB

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    You won't get lip-sync issues on an ALiS panel as lip-sync is caused by the processing delay in building a progressive signal. As the ALiS panel is interlaced this is obviously not an issue.
     
  23. kocl

    kocl
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    how can it be resolved, The dvd aplies a delay to av?
     
  24. CarlB

    CarlB
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    Some DVD players apply a delay to their progressive outputs, otherwise it can be solved with an amp that offers digital audio delay such as the Denon KAVC-A1SE. I add 50ms master delay and now have no more problem with lip-sync with my progressive DVD 3800 and Panasonic plasma.
     
  25. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    I know that ALiS panels are interlaced,but some people have lip-sync problems when watching sky,do you know why?


    dvd :smoke:
     
  26. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    It's a misnomer to say that lip sync problem are caused exclusively by progressive scan processing – either internally to plasma or LCD screen, or externally via video processors (e.g. iScan Ultra) or scalers.

    The progressive scan only compounds problems that already exists, in that quite often broadcast transmission are not in sync anyway. This is further compounded by the large screen where you can see it “writ large”. However, once you’ve noticed it – and which programmes are the worst offenders – you can see it on even interlaced CRTs too.

    Same is true with DVDs, some are mastered with terrible lip sync to begin with.

    ALiS don’t have as much of a lip sync problem as progressive displays – because they are interlaced – but it’ll still be there a little bit.

    Solution? Prog-scan DVD player with audio delay built in; for Sky etc you need amp with delay, or an external audio delay device. Or nothing. Most people don’t even notice lip sync until it’s pointed out to them; bit like the chroma bug.

    StooMonster
     
  27. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    StooMonster,


    Thanks for the info :)


    dvd
     

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