Are HD-DVD's scaled down to 576 better than SD-DVD ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by low-def., Apr 29, 2007.

  1. low-def.

    low-def.
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    Are HD-DVD's scaled down to 576 better than SD-DVD ?

    The reason I ask this question is because, I recently jumped on the HD bandwagon and bought an XE1 and a few HD films; Batman Begins, MI Boxset, V for Vendetta & Bourne Supremecy.

    So far though, I've not been really blown away. I watched V for Vendetta the other night, and yes I thought it looked good (filmed in 2:35:1) at 1080i (highest my tv will go) I thought I would downscale the disc to 576 to see if I (the human eye) could tell the difference between 1080i and 576 from 10 ft away.

    And unfortunately I have to say I could not see a striking difference.

    I then went an watched a 1:85:1 SD film (Pan's Labyrinth) upscaled to 1080i to see if I could see any apparent artifacts on screen that I've had on previous (cheaper) dvd players.

    Again the picture looked fantastic and no artifacts (this player really is a good SD machine). But its not on HD for me to compare.

    I watched Stranger than Fiction BD on my mates PS3 1:85:1 film and then downscaled it to 576 and it looked slightly worse than the 1080i.

    So far from my tests I'm not really sure whether its worth paying the extra £10 for a film (older dvds) at the moment to have it on HD.

    Anyone else thinking the same thing ?
     
  2. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Some of the new video codec (VC1 and AVC) offer advantages over the older MPEG2 for DVD even at the same resolution, especially on larger screens. Look for another recent post on this.
     
  3. Bald Monkey

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    I wondered this when I first got my Xbox addon :rotfl: £10 extra a disc is it worth it... this was on a 32" 768 LCD... :confused: I decided it was a difficult decision....

    So I went and got a PJ and now I'm convinced it is worth it :rotfl: :clap: ;)


    On a serious note though, although I still buy SD, the 'better' films I'll buy in HD as my displays are only going to get better ...... hopefully :smashin:
     
  4. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    Yes they will. It is a simply because HD DVD have a higher bitrate and resolution than SD DVD. It is easier to downscale than upscale.

    However, if your TV is 1080 and you set the HD DVD player to 576. All you are doing is downscaling 1080 to 576 but the TV then upscales back up to 1080 again. All HDTV's upscale themselves.
     
  5. Jules

    Jules
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    I've not been bowled over by HD-DVD yet.

    I have both SD and HD-DVD copies of Hulk, and in a back to back comparison the HD-DVD looked clearer on the bright outdoor shots.

    But honestly, if you played me the SD copy in isolation and asked me if it was HD or not, I'd probably say "ermmm, not sure".

    Granted, I'm using a high quality upscaler (Denon 3930), but I think that a really good SD DVD can rival an average HD-DVD.
     
  6. geese

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    I must say Im very happy with my XE1 connected to Pio. Everytime I watch sd-dvd on the EX1 its like VHS. Try Last samurai....Riddick 1 and 2.....Troy....and you will experience a PQ that is far far greater than any dvd movie on any player.
     
  7. Rob100

    Rob100
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    HD DVD scaled down to SD res would be 480 not 576.
     
  8. MAW

    MAW
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    One of the reasons for this is actually not HD related. Your Hitachi TV is not deinterlacing 1080i correctly, and is effectively downscaling the signal to 540p, instead of reconstructing 1080i frames. Hence you are not blown away, and 480/576 seems nearly as good.
     
  9. Avi

    Avi
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    Your display type and size maybe the limiting factor. The PD7200 uses ALIS/EALIS? approach to achieving 1024 resolution. IIRC this tech process a 1080 signal at 540 lines.

    Also consider that even at true 1024x1024 you're only using about half of the real HD DVD image data and at 540 lines about 26%. Imagine what effect it would have on PQ if you reduced DVD res by the same percentages.

    Display size and res does matter and the larger the display relative to viewing distance the greater the benefit. :)

    AVI
     
  10. Avi

    Avi
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    Jules

    What display/s are you using ?

    AVI
     
  11. peterweg

    peterweg
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    Whatching standard DVD's on my PS3 is very impressive. My AE1000 does a superb job of upscaling and the colours are superb. It does take a good source, Gladiator for instance. So many sources are bad..
     
  12. Avi

    Avi
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    Interesting as I find the PS3 to be a relatively poor dvd player even with good source. Things may improve with future software updates but something like a Denon 3930, XE1 and similar are a different league as far as DVD playback. :)

    AVI
     
  13. Timbo21

    Timbo21
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    I think it would be helpful if people state what size & type of display they are viewing.
     
  14. StooMonster

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    I find HD completely indistinguishable from SD DVD on my nan's thirty year old 14-inch black & white television set. Therefore it's a waste of time. :clown:

    StooMonster
     
  15. MAW

    MAW
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    Are you sure that's not just a cabling issue, Stoo? And what's Granny's viewing distance, and does she have her white stick to hand?
     
  16. batty

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    Interesting thread I too am thinking about jumping on HD-DVD,either the xbox add-on or the Toshiba.

    BUT am I reading correctly that I should stick with my Denon 2910 as my Hitachi PD7200 will not show a worthwhile improvment due to it being an Alis screen ??
     
  17. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    HD DVD/Blu Ray will always be better due to more detail. Even upscaled SD DVD cannot add more detail into the picture.
     
  18. Quickbeam

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    You're completely misrepresenting how interlaced displays work.

    ALiS panels, like HD CRTs (not that there are many) can display 1080i without deinterlacing, and this is actually an advantage over 720p, 768p and even 1080p panels which that use field bob deinterlacing to deliver a maximum of 540 lines of resolution per frame.

    An interlaced display shows the odd lines of the frame then the even lines. Due to persistence of vision the perceived vertical resolution is somewhere between the frame resolution of 1024 lines and the field resolution 512 lines (it varies depending on the amount of motion between fields).

    There's no denying that the horizontal resolution of 1024 pixels is a limiting factor, and that it leads to aliasing on the ALiS panels I have seen running 1080i material, but it still looks good, and at least there are no deinterlacing artefacts!

    brown1, do you have noise reduction turned on on the Hitachi, or any other 'innovation' that might actually be limiting the HD picture quality?
     
  19. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    And you're doing the same with how progressive displays work! ;)

    Not many modern panels use field-scaling / 'bob' deinterlacing for 1080i60 (i.e. HD DVD or Blu-ray interlaced output), many available today have reasonable 3:2 pulldown for 1080i60 and can therefore reconstruct and display (either natively if 1080p panel, or scale with 720p/768p panel) the entire 1080p resolution ... and not a 540 line resolution version.

    Or use an external video processor / scaler. :)

    There shouldn't be any sort of artefact anyway, it's film material which means that two field have to be weaved together to make a (full resolution) frame.

    Furthermore, some 'progressive' displays can accept and display 1080p, which ALiS (interlaced plasmas) can't.

    StooMonster
     
  20. diggler46

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    i was thinking of blowing some cash on hd dvd or blu ray, then saw how good bond looks running through my mere 360 on my sammy 40", the picture is fantastic........

    Like people have said, it very much depends on the source. I would imagine a good transfer sd dvd (such as bond, gladiator) would blow quite a few of the hd dvd's out of the water as they're not that good a transfer......

    my problem now is that the noise of the 360 is starting to drive me nuts when watching dvd's, but im torn between buying the hd addon (noise will still be there a little, but not as bad as when the disc is wirring), or go for the sony 576h at £100 for another year or so, or wait and spend £300 - £400 on a blu ray or hd dvd (blu ray gets my vote atm as more stuff seems to be available)...

    phew...
     
  21. crackazz

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    1024*1024 is nearer a 1/4 of 1920*1080 :lesson:
     
  22. Avi

    Avi
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    ALiS was developed by Fujitsu a decade ago to overcome limitations light output of plasma panels. The boosted light output was the key driver for use in the commercial market which at that time was the main focus of Fujitsu G's PDP business.

    Today the panel limitations have been overcome and ALiS/E-ALiS is a legacy tech produced only by Hitachi (Fujitsu transferred the majority of its shares (retained 19.9%) in their joint venture company FHP Ltd back to Hitachi in 2005). Fujitsu no longer uses ALiS/E-ALiS tech in any of its plasma products favouring progressive technology.

    My 1920x1080 progressive display is using the full res of the 1080i HD DVD signal i.e. 1080 in each progressive HD DVD frame not 540. :)

    AVI
     
  23. TrevorS

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    Depending on screen size, I would agree. However, my 33"HD 1080i CRT set visibly benefits with HD material at 8ft (relative to 1080i upscale), so depending on your expectations, even relatively modest sized screens have something to offer.
     
  24. TrevorS

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    I'm still trying to figure out how to optimize the picture with my Saka TFT 3"x4" LCD. Anybody got any setting suggestions?

    PS -- I'm expecting the image upgrade from my Denon 2900 should be pretty nice :)
     
  25. Avi

    Avi
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    I haven't seen any HD DVD that is not significantly better than SD DVD.

    Are there any bad HD DVD transfer ? Even the Searchers a 50 year old film looks stunning on HD DVD:)

    AVI
     
  26. TrevorS

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    EDIT: The below sentence is incorrect for photographic emulsion based film cameras -- those cameras having been used to shoot the "vast majority of existing film material". Alternating field shooting would be done by traditional alternating field TV cameras and alternating field digital cameras (an interim technology that was supplanted by progressive frame digital cameras).

    "The vast majority of existing film material was shot with sequential fields, not frames (a function of the state of technology)."

    EDIT: The below is true, but doesn't apply to actual "film" camera shot footage.

    As long as there is a temporal shift between consecutive fields, there will be on screen artifacts (unless no motion in the image). That's the reason certain Warner 1080i masters were reportedly vertically filtered -- to reduce jaggies on 1080i displays.

    (Unfortunately, the filtering created problems when the 1080i masters were inverse-telecined for HD DVD.)
     
  27. TrevorS

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    The transfers on HD DVD are generally of a very respectable caliber and will actually leave the SD DVD behind.

    What seems difficult for many to appreciate, is that the picture one sees on one's display is primarily defined by the director him/her-self. A film can (and generally is) be transferred near perfectly to the media, but that doesn't mean the picture will knock your socks off. It actually should NOT look better (in the sense of grainless 3D wonderfulness), than the director planned it to look. If it does, it means that the transfer is indeed wrong -- somebody fritzed with it.

    A good example of this is the U2 concert "Rattle And Hum". It was shot in a fashion that resulted in high grain content in the image. It is popular to say that it's a bad HD DVD because of the high grain content. However, that was exactly how it was originally shot. HD DVD (or BD) has no business taking a film that was shot/released in a particular way, and making it look different.

    Another interesting example is the HD DVD "Animal House". The restoration house went to considerable effort to clean up the elements and create a superlative 1080p master. However, they asked the original film maker to evaluate their results and he was very dissatisfied. The problem was simply that the restoration process had made the film look TOO good! It seems it was actually SUPPOSED to look sort of gritty and grainy and low budget -- that was exactly what the director wanted!

    Consequently, the restoration was rolled back and the current HD DVD of "Animal House" actually meets with the approval of the director!

    How's them apples?
     
  28. diggler46

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    good points...I noticed wit hthe departed on sd dvd that many parts were of a grainy nature, mainly outdoor bits as I can recall...
     
  29. MAW

    MAW
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    This is an argument as old as ALIS panels. There are 2 schools of thought: 1 which thinks as you do, Quickbeam, and er, one which thinks that a vast amount of processing goes on in there, and that it's deinterlaced by adding the frames together in sequence, like 99% of cheap deinterlacers, think LG, Sony, and then reprocessed to be displayed as half fields at 60Hz, regardless of original frame rate. Take your pick, I am firmly in camp 2.
     
  30. Avi

    Avi
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    Can you explain how "film" is shot in "fields" as opposed to frames ?

    AVI
     

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