Arcam was right about the HD format war

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by gregeas, Sep 4, 2007.

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  1. gregeas

    gregeas
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    Just a month ago I was thinking that the HD format war was virtually over in favor of Blu-ray. But since Paramount and Dreamworks Amation were paid $150m to become HD-DVD exclusive, it now looks like there is no end in sight for the format war. Sadly, I think the prolonged war will result in consumers, including me, losing interest in both formats.

    I will say that the best Blu-ray movies, such as Apocalypto, look absolutely spectacular on my 100" screen. Going back to regular DVDs makes me feel like I need glasses. I never got a chance to hear the lossless soundtracks, but word is that they sound very good.

    It's too bad the studios and hardware manufacturers couldn't overcome their greed to create a product that appeals to consumers, or at least doesn't confound them. I have no interest in buying separate HD players for both formats, and there probably won't be enough movies I want to watch on one format to keep me engaged.

    So it looks I'll be watching SD DVDs for the foreseeable future, just as Arcam predicted.
     
  2. DMT

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    Samsung BD-UP5000 :)
     
  3. hornydragon

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    Dual format players are too far off but with E1 HD-DVD decks under £200 its probably cheaper 2 have 2 players than one dual format, recording or HD may be the final decider........... That or MR DVD playback
     
  4. doopydug

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    Have you got a link to let me read about the £150M?

    I thought they did it through their own free will?

    I am format neutral btw - just interested
     
  5. oceanrower

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    Well the format war is more or less over and Blue-Ray is the one that has lost.

    1) HD-DVD sells 8 times as many films as Blue-Ray

    2) It presently costs $4 to produce a Blue-Ray film and $1,25 for HD-DVD

    3) More filmcompanies supports HD-DVD

    4) HD-DVD is a standard for all manufacturers. Blue-Ray is one companies attempt to get support for a "non-standard".

    5) The FBI investigates bribes that Sony paid to other companies to support Blue-Ray.

    6) The European Commission investigates bribes that Sony has paid to get companies to spread a faulse story about that Blue-Ray has won.

    7) The single most determinating factor previously in any format war has been the amount of sold stand alone units. Which HD-DVD by far outsells Blue-Ray.

    8) Blue-Ray will soon launch the next generation of players, making the present one obsolete (yes present players are not future proof) and in late 2008 Blue-Ray will have to launch their 3rd generation of players to be able to use the 50 GB discs, with a newer technology that is not compatible with 1st or 2nd generation of players. Which customer will be loyal to a platform that forces you to buy a new player every year?

    9) Tougher technological solutions makes Blue-Ray way much more timeconsuming and more expensive for everybody involved.

    10) Blue-Ray has still got a lot of bugs that will only be sorted out in the 2nd and 3rd generations of players... if the consumers ever will buy them.

    11) Sonys demand for roylaty on Blue-Ray components are so high most manufactures tries to find ways of boycotting Sony.

    12) The European Commission is investigating Sonys way of making sure that their filmcompanies only supports Blue-Ray. This is illegal according to the unions act of freedom for products and also a crime agains free markets. Extreamly high fees will have to be paid and new legislation will destruct Sony´s present plans.

    13) Blue-Ray will have more copyprotections systems preventing compeditive pricing from different regions. This has made several consumer organisations boycot Blue-Ray in favour of HD-DVD.

    14) The copyprotectionssystems will make sure that Blue-Rays will remain more expensive than HD-DVD. Consumers tends to buy the cheapest technology.

    15) Toshiba earns money on their HD-DVD-players. Sony looses money on theirs. Presently they sell them to a hughe loss as they do not what to have 1st generation of players in stock when the 2nd generations of players will be launched.

    16) Sonys advantage from the Playstation 3 has not been great as other console-systems have got most of the market. On top of that, console-users have so far not bought a noticeable amount of films. And console-users have previously been interested in technology such as better resolutions from HD-ready screens, projectors, hometheatre etc...

    I could go on and make the list longer and longer. Both HD-DVD and Blue-Ray have a heafty propaganda race. Do not belive what you read in the magazines. Most journalists do not know enough information.

    To Sony´s favour one could say that they are doing the historys largest retailmarket PR-push during September-December this year. All over Europe they will show their integrated systems with everything digital in HD (camcorders, cameras, console, Blue-Ray, TV-screens etc...)

    Even if things shifts abit, the format war is still over. It is more of a media hype and a desperate companys attempt to make their components find its way into the market.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    The authour has for 8 years been one of just a handfull of Europes consumer and IT-hardware analysts. Working with most of the international manufacturers marketing and salesdepartments and provided them with reports that the board of directors used prior to strategical decissions.

    So - back to the subject - lauch an Arcam HD-DVD with really good D/A
     
  6. patrickkk

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    Hi Oceanrower,
    do you have any web links to backup these numbers ? I am myself following the war on standard but didn't came to the same conclusion. Sounds like you have some interesting data I didn't find on the internet.

    Thanks for your help understing the issue.
     
  7. ianmacd

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    Well that was intersting if not unbelievable. A few notes though.

    Blu-ray (note not blue) seems to be outselling HD-DVD by up to five times in europe (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/08/ifa_2007_sony_c.html).

    Sony parners claim not to have been given payouts (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/08/ifa_2007_no_cas.html).

    Some large manufactures are not making HD-dvd players (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/08/ifa_2007_samsun_6.html).

    Apparently (couldn't find the link), all the HD-DVD players out there are actualy Toshiba or rebadged Toshiba and no independant designes and Toshiba are loosing loads on the players.

    Blu-Ray have got some intersting manufactures on side (http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/08/ifa_2007_china.html).

    HD-DVD doesnt currently do 1080p24 (although a roumered upgrade for some players could be on the cards).

    Storage wise, Blu-ray holds nearly twice as much data per layer as HD-DVD does.
     
  8. Greggles

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    Oceanrower; I haven't read that much unsubstantiated drivel in the HD format war (from either camp) in some time! Just like old times:devil:
     
  9. gregeas

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    My disappointment about next-gen DVD is informed by my experience with SACD and DVD-A. I was an early adopter of the DVD-A (with the Arcam DV79), bought several Denon universal players, and finally spent significant money on the DV137 and 139. Over the course of five years I managed to find less than 30 SACDs and DVD-As that I actually wanted to listen to. And of these, only two or three were albums in my "core curriculum." So needless to say, I gave up on these formats and sold off my hi-res disks and players.

    It's not difficult to envision HD-DVD and Blu-ray having the same fate: the split market means smaller install base for each format, which leads to fewer releases, which results in fewer hardware options...
     
  10. oceanrower

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    Hi all!

    Thanks for the interesting thread on an interesting subject! Is there any thing in peticular that you would like to get figures on? Let me know!

    I´ll provide everything that I do not need to type of any written material or are forbidden to do due to analyst vs. manufacturer contracts.

    Cheers,,
     
  11. LFCRules

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    Wow, a format's war thread develops in the Arcam forum :rolleyes:

    And on the subject, I'm still very happy with my pixel perfect FMJ DV29 to Screenplay 5700......... 576p perfectly matched lines every time :D


    :rotfl:
     
  12. oceanrower

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    Your right, perfectly matched pixels makes all the difference!

    I always wonder how everybody seems to be faschinated to get better boxes instead of getting a decent recording, rack, mainsconditioner, cables or other cheaper upgrades. Boxes tend to be more fun to purchase but you will not be able to get the most out of them if you miss out on the rest.
     
  13. Turtles

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    Oceanrower,

    Are there any more jobs available for the HD-DVD advertising campaign? I've always fancied it and I'd wear a t-shirt and everything!

    NB. Arcam forum - if I get hired I'll make sure everyone gets a pen and mouse mat!
     
  14. Dankeech

    Dankeech
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    Well, if this thread is about discussing the forum war, I'm probably going to have to get it merged to one of the many other ones in one of the High-Def Sources forum..:confused:

    Thread will probably get transferred next time I read through, this isn't the place for either format to be discussed unless it's in relation to our favourite manufacturer beginning with A as we all know the dark path this leads down.

    Dan.
     
  15. Theo Maxtible

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    I'm really impressed with the performance of my DV137/AVR350 when playing SACDs or DVD-As. These machines are responsible for me spending too much on these exciting formats!

    How's that for bringing the A word back into this thread!!!???:)
     
  16. Max Payne

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    For a poster to go that far in a post to back one side of a format war and get the spelling of the other format incorrect, really takes away the credibility of their post.



    Ignore and move on
    (And Im an HDDVD owner)
     
  17. tvh3ad

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    Completely agree. Especially after the DVDA-not-SACD debacle, I think Arcam is quite wise to wait. I have the 139 and really enjoy the SD picture it puts out, netflix currently has 85,000 SD titles to choose from (and fewer than 700 BD+HD combined) and, while I'm sure TrueHD will be marginally better, the plain ol' DDIIx/THX sound is already pretty great.
     
  18. Turtles

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    OK, OK heh..

    I'm a 139 owner (with 200 odd DVD's) and also have a PS3 (with 1 Blu-ray title) and yes I can see the benefit of Blu-ray but just cannot see anywhere near enough of an improvement to even contemplate thinking about duplicating any titles for the very marginal improvement.

    I fully acknowledge that the future is going to change and also that if I add a projector at some stage the improvement is more noticeable on a bigger display (currently a 40" LCD) but it would be ridiculous for me to consider changing from SD DVD's anytime soon.

    As may others the prospect of True-HD and other formats via HDMI is exciting but again in its infancy and again minuscule improvements due to developing standards and hardware playing catch up, so as a loyal Arcam owner I'll carry on hoping for that DIVA music server.......:thumbsup:
     
  19. Clem_Dye

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    The big issue for me is the dual format, and the fact that studios seem to be split on their support for them. I simply can't see any real mainstream update taking place until this is sorted - either one side will loose, or both will limp along in what will be a niche market and SD-DVD will prevail for some years yet.

    With the likes of the new LG and Samsung dual format players about to surface, I might be tempted if the price is right, just to see if there really are big differences. My DV139 coughs-out a decent enough SD picture and with ~650 DVDs I certainly won't be rushing to replace them with HD/BR versions (not that I have to worry, as there's only about 400 titles up for grabs right now, if I recall correctly) but I am getting more tempted .....

    With all due respect, anyone who plumps for one format over the other right now is a bit of a chump, IMO.


    Clem
     
  20. gregeas

    gregeas
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    I will say that I couldn't see any difference between Blu-ray and DVD on my 42" plasma. But there is a considerable difference when I project the image to a 100" screen. Much more detail, and clarity with Blu-ray. This was compared to the upscaled image with my 139.

    I recently sold my 139, but now, given that the next-gen format war is seemingly interminable, I view this as a mistake.
     
  21. BrianC

    BrianC
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    I'd wait until you can compare a like for like player from Arcam, the 139 is a class or two above either HD camps' players at the moment. Its a bit like comparing SACD or DVD-A on my Denon 3910 against CDs in a 139. I'm sure an Arcam HD player would be significantly better than the same series Arcam SD player.

    I can see a clear improvement with HD-DVDs in the Toshiba against DVDs in my 3910, its not massive but it is clearly there and a noticeable step up from what the BBC broadcast on Sky HD. I can't see either HD-DVD or Blu-ray (assuming both using VC-1) players of the same class being different either in that I'd get similar results with the high end Blu-ray player.

    If Arcam can't produce a dual format player I'd rather they wait anyway, the longer they wait the more advanced the play back gets so we get a better product, and one that hopefully is more stable.
     
  22. UrbanT

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    I also owned, and sold a DV139. I don't however consider this to be a mistake. The DV139 is a great machine, by far the best DVD player I have seen, and a cracking CD player to boot. But it wasn't being used as all the films I wanted to watch have been coming out either in HD-DVD or BR. And as good as the picture on the 139 is, its not up to either HD format. As I wasn't listening to CD's either, it was a no brainer.

    I'm not sure why having two formats is an issue, as support for both seems very strong. And thats the big difference when compared to DVDA and SACD, because most of those releases have been niche titles, and not a constant flow of the latest and popular titles which will sell in quantity.

    The problem is clearly for those who have spent many years building large DVD collections, its understanble they would be resistant to investing in new formats.
     
  23. Timbo21

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    It seems very common that those with 42" size screens really report quite negligible differences between good SD and HD, and those with projectors report the difference to be considerable - although on a good SD transfer the DV139 occasionally quite surprises me. Where this leaves the new HD formats in terms of mass uptake, I'm not sure. I have a feeling that many will eventually buy into HD merely because they have an HD TV, and doing so without really investigating to see if they are getting any obvious benefits. It could be said that HD is the Emperors New Clothes for screen sizes up to around 42", but screen sizes are getting bigger, and a 50" plasma seems quite a common desire.
     
  24. ReferenceLover

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    My question is that while Arcam is waiting for the outcome of this HD format war, are Arcam engineers putting any effort on R&D on HD format at all? How much time would Arcam engineers need to learn for developing new HD disc play device?

    Just curious :)
     
  25. oceanrower

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    Well forums tends to attract people with large egos that needs to express one selves....

    And format war tends to make people start debating and also get people emotionally involved. ;)

    Please, I urge some of the members of this forum to start provide facts and use your integrity wisely. :smashin:

    And no: I do not own any HD-DVD-player. Nor do I own any T-shirt or take any bribes from the HD-DVD-campain. What I do have - is first class information and years of knowledge of writing reports on IT-hardware that the board of directors of companies like Sony, IBM, HP, Compaq, Microsoft, Intel, AMD (and a lot more..) partly base their strategical decissions on. This means that when I predict that HD-DVD will win the format war I might have some better knowledge than the average drunk pubvisitor around the corner.

    Successful people tend to take advice from people who have succeded or know what they are talking about. Loosers ask their neigbours for advice. And, frankly, is that not why we are all hear on this forum? We would like to get advice from people that have years of Arcam experience!!! :lesson:

    (Appologies for making an issue of out of that some people on this forum try to make them selves feel as better human beeings out of writing crap about me..) :boring::suicide:

    Back to subject:
    This means that I still predict that we will se an Arcam HD-DVD player and not an Arcam Blue-Ray or combo-player. But of cause, I might be wrong. :spam:
     
  26. Turtles

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    I don't think that we're be seeing any move from Arcam for some time in the HD arena. Its a shame that ultimately the consumer will lose with films not being produced for both formats, the cost of hardware and the confusion created because the average customer will not be aware that they won't be able to purchase the latest release for the HD player the nice man in Dixons promised them would do it all....

    Without casting too many aspersions on the HD-DVD advocate I don't think you can write off Blu-ray simply because Sony are getting hardware into peoples homes via the PS3, whereas HD-DVD is only managing this via player purchases or the Xbox drive. For this reason the brand loyalty is created from the very first HD media purchase and Sony have that advantage. To be fair (and not truculent, please note mods!) HD-DVD's do have the cost advantage and will gain market share simply from that. Basically no one can predict the outcome and as mentioned previously the 2 formats could co-exist, which brings me back to my original point that we are likely to be the losers because of the cost and confusion.
     
  27. Dankeech

    Dankeech
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    Ok all, I think this thread has run it's course so is being closed. Not really an Arcam forum discussion and I don't see this thread being of further use.:suicide:

    Regards all,

    Dan.
     
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