1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Arcam P35 for HC

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by paiger, Nov 13, 2002.

Tags:
  1. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have just phoned around and have a chance to pick up an Arcam P35 power amp at a significant saving. Bearing in mind I am building an AV system, probably including an Arcam AV8 later, is this worth buying over the P7 5 channel? I'm assuming that it could be upgraded to 3 channel, how much does this cost roughly? Would it be feasable (and recommended) to use this 3 channel amp for my mains and center and then purchase a second P35 later for the two rears (and possibly rear centre if upgraded to 3 channel as well).

    The main advantage I can see is that it's much smaller than the P7 and the cost would be lower. I know I would have to have another amp at the rear of the room somewhere but I dont see this as a problem.

    Comments please. I told the guy I would let him know tomorrow and I am sorely tempted.

    Steve
     
  2. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have the P-25 (the previous model to the P-35) 3 channel amp powering my front three M&K S-85's. The difference it made from just using the Denon to power all five was staggering.

    I am a full believer in Power Amping and, from my humble experience, adding the P-25 to my front channels has made an awful lot of difference to the detail at low levels and the control at levels of around -10db to -5db from reference level.

    This amp starts to have an issue with harshness at levels above -7db (depending on soundtrack) but it will take reference level for a quick burst if you just want to find out what its like. Believe me, -10db is enough in my room! Usually, a good volume for me for movie listening starts is -25db to -20db. I rarely go a lot higher then that unless the sound track is bad.

    Anyway (waffling again :rolleyes: ) I haven’t heard the P-35 but would recommend an audition for this as the P-25 is a real hoot. Plus Arcam customer support is something of a dream......they even patrol these sites!!

    Ask any question that you may if you need too...
     
  3. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    So, i'm guessing you take the pre-outs for the front and centre to the P25. Tell me, does the level of the pre-outs vary with the recievers volume control? What I'm saying is, I assume you would have to set the speaker volumes using the reciever set-up for the rears and the P25 volume control for the others. Once set, do they increase and decrease in proportion?

    As for overall volume, I rarely go over -40 as I'm in a late 70's house with neighbours. Should be moving to a barn conversion, fully detatched in the middle of nowhere soon though so I may need a bit more welly.

    Steve
     
  4. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Correct. I take the pre-outs from the back of my Denon 3802 and insert them (via phono's) into the 'Ins' of my P-25. I then use the test tones of my Denon 3802 and a SPL Meter to make sure that all the channels measure exactly 75db.

    I am shocked that you do not take your Amp above -40db! :confused: I can hear legable speech and effects from -30db; this is the minimum I could listen to a film at without missing disalogue and effects. My room is 12 feet by 12 feet. Out of interest, how big is yours?

    When are you moving to the new Barn house? I am not quite sure that you should spend x amout of money on the P-35 and then, within a few months, spend £2,500 on the Arcam P7; although I am sure the Arcam boys will disagree! Bear in mind that your current amp will bearly be stretched at -40db.

    In fact, what system have you got currently!
     
  5. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    At the mo I have A Sony 1080 and DVPNS700, Sony Sat box and Sony WS TV. I may have got my wires crossed about the dB thing. My amp has an infinite volume control and the screen displays a dB figure. IT's audible from about -65 and -30 is very loud. I mean earth shakingly loud with Gladiator in there. I don't really understand the way the scale works so maybe my speakers (Ruark Epilogue R) make a difference.

    Anyway, it's plenty loud enough. The barn I am moving to (when it's finished) has a long kitchen/dining/living room about 16 feet wide and at least 50 feet long. The TV/ PJ screen will be at the end with the the main speakers firing up the room. It should be a good shape as hopefully there will be space behind the viewing are for rear centre.

    The plan is to get this P35, convert to 3Ch and use this as you are using yours. Then get another to use for the rears. Once this is in place I plan to get an Arcam AV8 processor and a better DVD player. I'm sure the two P35's will be loud enough for what want. I just think the P7 is too big for the space I have whereas the P35s could easilly be concealed.

    What do you think.

    Steve
     
  6. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    You could conceal most power amps as long as you have enough length on the phono cable and speaker cable. In fact, you don't even have to have the power amps on display at all. Place them in a well ventalated area in the room and just have the amp on display. Then when you move can take it with you!

    Are the P-35 not already 3 channel like the P-25?

    I dont actually know the total price for the 2 x P-35's. Do you know?
     
  7. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I think the P35's come in at about £800 rrp. I believe they are 2 channel as standard although can be ordered, and existing models upgraded to 3 channel at extra cost. I need to find out how much this is. They are only 100mm high though so much easier to hide the P7 which is probably going to stick out wherever you put it.

    Anyway, I like the idea of easing into it cheaply and then getting a processor once my power section is complete.

    Steve
     
  8. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    O.K, but let’s say you buy two modified (3-Channel) P-35 at around £1000 each. That’s two grand for 6 channels at 100Watts p/c

    The P7 is only £500 more and that’s is seven channels with 170W of output.

    Cant understand how buying two P-35''s and then, at a later date, a P-7 power amp is going to ease you in cheaply!!!

    I’m not trying to get at you. Just trying to understand.

    By the way - that’s a mighty big room you are moving two - going to need some huge subs to fill it! :D
     
  9. PFM

    PFM
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2000
    Messages:
    451
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Barton Upon Humber
    Ratings:
    +17
    If this is any help,

    I run a TAG AVR32 with 2x Arcam Alpha 10 amps (1x 2ch, 1x3ch), they are the for runners and former flagship models (~4 years ago) for Arcam. There may be significant changes sonic between the Alpha10 and the new P7 (havent demoed it yet) but there is no significant sonic change between the Alpha10's and the P35's.

    If you can demo them against each other (obvious advice), but if you find any Alpha 10's out there for a bargain price, my advice would be to snap them up.

    For more info on Alpha10's search one of my threads on the topic (about 18months ago)

    Hope this helps:cool:
     
  10. ANDY_DUTTON

    ANDY_DUTTON
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Ratings:
    +87
    Clearly I would like you to buy the P7 as its fantastic and I think a much neater solution than 3 seperate amplifier boxes 1x3ch 2x2 ch (That you should not pile up as this will not allow the heat sinks to work properly) but I am biased.

    However if you would like to go the P35 route then I can tell you that the P35 3 channel upgrade is currently listed in out price list at £200. You will need to return the amplifier for this upgrade.

    Hope that helps with your decision.

    Regards,
    Andrew (ARCAM)
     
  11. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hmm, not so sure now. Brad, I wouldn't want a P7 if I had 2 P35's. I was offered a P35 for £600 ex-dem but it was snapped up this morning. So, that's 2 P35's for £1200 plus £200 to get one upgraded =£1400. This does depend on me getting them at cut price mind you and I may be able to get an ex-dem P7.

    What I am really looking for is a compact solution. The P7 is a lovely machine but I fear it is just too tall for my rack whereas a P35 would slide in nicely with ventilation room. The other P35 would have to sit on a shelf somewhere else.

    I may have to re-design my rack a bit. I'm pretty keen on aesthetics as most HCC installs look appalling to me and I like anything that can be hidden, hidden.

    Also, the P35 route is one that I can ease into, using the first for my mains (and then centre) and then sourcing another for the rears later.

    I think I'll have to demo some to see if there's any difference.

    Steve
     
  12. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Andrew, tell me, is there a problem with siting poewr amps (P7 or P35) on their sides as opposed to flat?

    S
     
  13. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    No I understand - your geting ex-dmo kit! Ahhhhhh! My tiny brain has caught on now.

    This is exactly how I got my P-25; £500 ex demo from Rayleigh Hi-Fi. Fantastic buy as far as I am concerned. The only slight issue is that it wont quiet take reference level without getting a little harsh and un-controlled. However, I demo for my friends at -10db and this enough to raise a large grin at the quality of sound with beutiful control.

    Yes - I am starting t sound like an art critic. Ahem. Time to stop.

    By the way, do go for the demos - you wont be dissapointed with Arcam stuff! :D
     
  14. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yeah, should be good. Do you know if these amps are OK placed vertically, ie. standing on what would be one of the side panels?

    Steve
     
  15. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I wouldn't place these units on there sides or piled up on top of each other. They need very good ventalation. They can get mighty hot if not and you dont want the fans kicking it; when they do you know that they are hot!

    Thats another point. Considering that they can't go on there side and that you should not stack them up, what will you do to combat this?
     
  16. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    For the record you should not use these amplifiers on their sides, and certainly not if you wish to use them at high volume. The heatsinks are designed to be convection cooled with a flow of air upwards from bottom to top and interrupting this is not a good thing! For the same reason you should leave spaces between a stack of the smaller amplifiers, so the heat from the lowest one doesn't vent through the one above it.

    HTH.

    John Dawson (Arcam)

    BTW, for those on a limited budget the Arcam DiVA series P85 and 85/3 have almost as much power as the FMJ series 25 and newer 35 amps, with similar circuitry as the 35. They are a good way of getting audiophile quality and power on a budget to complement a good receiver or even an Arcam/TAG quality processor.
     
  17. Brad_Porter

    Brad_Porter
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    John,

    Can you suggest ways for Paiger to stack the Arcam P-35's without heat problems? Stick 5cm or 10cm rubber feet between the, or if need be, totally separate shelves?

    Paiger wants two P-35's because he wants a smaller set-up and more cost effective. But with the recommendation of good ventilation between each unit, it may actually not be much different between the P-7 and 2 x P-35's in height!

    Sigh - you think you are getting somewhere and then
    ...
     
  18. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for all the advice chaps. I didn't think it woule be advisable to stand these things up as they are clearly designed with convection cooling in mind. No harm in asking though as it would provide one solution. I can get one amp in my rack with a processor. That assumes that it's around 100mm high, the P7 simply would not fit and having custom built my rack myself, I am loathe to tear it apart. The shelves are flexible and can be moved but I have too much stuff in there to get a bigger amp in. So the front one is not a problem if it was a P35 etc. The rear one would need placing or I could use monoblocks like bryston powerpacs but I would be worried that they are not matched with the fronts.

    I think the P35 route is the one I will take, will also try the 85's as John suggests. I'm sure there is somewhere that the rear amp can go and it's an attractive box so it shouldn't be a problem.

    Steve
     
  19. ANDY_DUTTON

    ANDY_DUTTON
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Ratings:
    +87
    Ok the company line, You cannot place amplifiers on there sides as the heat sink is designed to work by convection and hence needs to be the right way up for the heat to flow through it correctly.

    What will actually happen. So long as you are not running them very hard they will just run a bit hotter than usual and the amps are protected agains thermal overload so if you do get them to hot they will turn off. The problem with this is that it will shortern the life of the amplifer. Electronics life is largely determined by how hot it runs, so if it is always hotter than it was designed to be you can expect the life to be reduced.

    Regards,
    Andrew
     
  20. paiger

    paiger
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yes, not advisable on a piece of equipment that costs a grand though. You really want to look after it. Having said that, I may be tempted with a second-hand P85....


    S
     
  21. Plump

    Plump
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    636
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    under the bridge
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hello Andy,
    I know you are preamp designer but I have general question about amps. And you might know this from TAG days.
    I have full TAG setup apart from amps that are Rotel. (Saving for Accuphase anyway)
    I did not take TAG amps because I never liked their switching on and off all the time.
    Can that harm the amp? I just want to know this - simply my curiosity.
    Thanks.
     
  22. ANDY_DUTTON

    ANDY_DUTTON
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    498
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Cambridge
    Ratings:
    +87
    Sorry I don't really understand the question. Are you asking if turning amps on and off "all the time" will damage the amplifier?

    If this is your question then the answer is no this should not damage the amplifier it is designed to work that way. The TAG amplifer uses two sets of realys internally one set of clean contacts and one set of dirty contacts, so that when the power is switched on the dirty contacts close first the then clean and and when it is turend off the dirty contacts open first then the clean ones. This means that the continual swithcing of the amplifier should not cause any problems.

    As for the sound quality, clearly you would have to make the comparisons yourself as everyones taste on sound at this high performance level is different. I prefer the P7 as an amplifer but then I am biased.

    Andy. (ARCAM)
     
  23. Plump

    Plump
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    636
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    under the bridge
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks Andy, that was the question.

    P.S. And about amps, I already decided to go for Accuphase .
     

Share This Page

Loading...