Arcam DV88 Progressive Audio Delay

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by ijwoo1, Sep 29, 2002.

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  1. ijwoo1

    ijwoo1
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    Hi,

    Anyone know if there is a hidden option to alter the amount of delay introduced when the 'Progressive' option for audio delay is selected ?

    With NTSC sources it seems to be about right but with LAP (Hint: anagram) sources it could still do with a little more delay, as video lags the audio i.e the dreaded Lip sync issue.

    Is it logical that progressive LAP should introduce a different delay compared with NTSC ? I guess if the delay is related to frame duration then it would be about 10 mS.

    If hat is the reason why doesnt the DV88 just add in another 10mS for LAP sources ?

    I don't have my full system set up yet so I cannot check the results on anything other than a DV88 connected directly to a Sim HT200 projector.

    If I can't change it within the DV88 I might have to fork out for an Audio delay facility in an AMP like the Denon AVC 1SR, which I would rather avoid, obviously. Either that or I have to lump it, which isn't a particularly attractive option either after having spent a small fortune.

    When I eventually get to connect my DV88 to a PLASMA is the audio delay likely to be different again ? In other words will a plasma introduce a different delay to the HT200 projector on progressive sources ?

    Thanks for any info.
     
  2. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    Wouldn't it be easier just to type PAL?;)
     
  3. ijwoo1

    ijwoo1
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    Agreed, especially as PAL has just been 'cleared' for progressive scan, but better safe than sorry. :)
     
  4. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    The audio delay in these players is set for 3 fields in 525/60, i.e. it is 50 milliseconds. If there are no other video delays in the system it should be sufficient even on 625/50 material.

    There is no way to increase this delay from the player menu - sorry.

    According to a broadcast engineer I have corresponded with, 20 milliseconds of sync error is very difficult to spot even for experienced viewers, although it is easier to see if the audio leads the video. I am told that the delay introduced in some plasmas and projectors can be a bit bigger than this figure plus the 50 milliseconds available in the player and I imagine that is something we may need to look at in the future.

    Thank you for your input here.

    Sincerely,

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  5. HCking

    HCking
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    John

    i recently purchased an Arcam dv88 plus and was wondering what is the latest firmware for this machine, and does it enable pal progressive

    regards

    HCking
     
  6. ian_guinan

    ian_guinan
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    Wasn't one of the main features of the DV88 Plus the fact that it did PAL progressive out of the box? (or did I misread that press release?) I was thinking of checking one of these out for that very reason.

    Regards,
    Ian Guinan
     
  7. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    The DV88 Plus, which started shipping last week, will do 625p out of the box.

    A regular DV88P, fitted with the Silicon Image PS board, does not.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  8. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    Do you have any details on upgrade costs/availability for the DV27 FMJ? I was hoping the upgrade might solve my Chroma problem......
     
  9. ijwoo1

    ijwoo1
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    Thanks for the reply JD.

    I'm now curious to know firstly whether the DV88+ has the same option as the DV88P, to delay the audio for progressive scan and secondly whether it delays the audio by the same amount, i.e. 50ms for both 525/60 and 625/50 material or does it allow for the different field durations inherent in each ?

    I guess I'll just have to wait to see how much of an issue this will be with the Plasma when I get it, not to mention other sources.

    Being a born pessimist I get the feeling I'll be swapping my Denon 3802 for the AVC1SR just to get the audio delay facilty .... DOH !
     
  10. HCking

    HCking
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    John

    i have got the detals off the front and rear of player

    front

    DV88 DVD player
    PLUS

    back

    D88vp01114
    02bh-02825


    cheers

    HCking
     
  11. harry_thx

    harry_thx
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    HI,

    @Nigel
    I hope too......( for a long time now)

    Harry
     
  12. ijwoo1

    ijwoo1
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    Hi,

    I think I'm safe in saying that the PLUS does indeed allow 625 progressive.

    Sooooo ;) In your setup menu do you have an option "Audio Delay" ? And do you only have two options "Progressive" and "Normal" ?

    I seem to remember reading somewhere that Arcam were only making use of a feature in the SIL decoder chipset when "progressive" is selected in the "Audio delay" menu option. Now I think I'm right in saying that the DV88+ does not use the SIL chipset which means that if you do have an "Audio delay" option, either the DV88+ chipset has a similar option or Arcam have come up with an alternative delay method to allow for the progressive processing overhead. Hmmmm

    If on the other hand you do not have any audio delay options I'll be interested to hear how you get on when viewing progressive sources.

    I'm now sort of reading between the lines in JDs post when he says that 20ms+50ms might need addressing. I'm wondering if he is referring specifically to the DV88+ here, as the DV88P compensates for the 50ms delay. If your video lags the audio by >50ms when viewing progressive sources I'd be surprised if you didn't notice it.

    PS. I'm not trying to worry you here, I'm just trying to establish whether the DV88+ might be a better option for me and whether I should be hassling my dealer as he has only just sold me the DV88P !

    Thanks
     
  13. steelej

    steelej
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    So do you still need to specify a progressive version of the DV88+ or are they all progressive cause I'll probably be ordering this next week and just want to make sure?

    John.
     
  14. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    All DV88 Plus models (i.e. both black and silver!) support 525/60 and 625/50 progressive scan.

    There is no need for an extra 50 ms audio delay in this player as the deinterlacing is done internally in the Zoran Vaddis 5 decoder.

    HTH.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  15. ijwoo1

    ijwoo1
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    My apologies everyone for persisting with this but I'm keen to understand what I need to do to overcome my lip sync problem.

    Firstly, am I right in saying that the theoretical audio delay required for 525/60 is 50ms and for 625/50 it would be 60ms.

    And that on the DV88P, the "Progressive" audio delay option adds 50mS for both 525/60 and 625/60 (Lets assume the DV88P does 625/60), the theory being that nobody can detect a 10mS lag between Audio and Video when watching 625/50.

    But on the DV88+, there is no need for any audio delay options because the audio is inherently delayed as part of the deinterlacing process by the Zoran Vaddis 5 ? In other words the video out from the DV88+ is always in sync with the audio regardless of whether it is progressive 525/60, 625/50 or even non-progressive ?

    All I can say is that at the moment I'm definitely getting lip sync issues watching 625/50 but NOT 525/60 progressive from my DV88P. Now it could of course be my projector that is causing the problems but it would seem sensible, if what I've said above is correct, to check out a DV88+ to see if that improves things.

    Have I got it completely wrong again JD ? I'm sure I'm missing something here, so my apologies in advance.

    Rgds
     
  16. steelej

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    If I can also ask, how does the quality compare with the New DV88+ with built in progressive and the old DV88 with progressive board? Is the picture quality improved any with the DV88+?

    John.
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The on board DV88plus de-interlacing is pretty nice. I think the Sil chipped board is better though.....but it costs more.

    Gordon
     
  18. jimbof

    jimbof
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    Hi,

    I had a look at the 88+ yesterday - looked very nice. When compared against the 88p in the shop I actually thought the + looked a bit better (goes to show what I know!). But the manual definately says it doesn't do PAL prog - is that just a lie? The bloke in the shop also reckoned you needed a firmware upgrade to multiregion, rather than the handset hack on the 88p - and that this wasn't available yet. Is this true? If it is are there any idea's on when it will appear - I'm not too keen on getting a player that invalidates 2/3 of my dvd collection!
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    In normal out of the box mode the 88 plus is better than the old unit. However we are talking about the technical merits of the de-interlacing in the Zoran chipset comapred to the Silicon Image one used in the optional plug in board for original 88 and still used in FMJ27.

    The guy in the shop is obviously not trying very hard if he hasn't worked out that you make it region free EXACTLY as you would the normal 88.....but I didn't tell you right!

    Gordon

    P.S. The88plus does do PAL progressive DEFINATELY.
     
  20. Gliese 581c

    Gliese 581c
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    Course it will, using the DV88 'hack' the DV88 with PS board will do 625p ;)
     
  21. steelej

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    Hi Gordon,

    It good that you're here 'cause I was going to phone SS tomorrow anyway :) So what I was wanting to know, is there any other player in the £1300 or less bracket that you would recommend over the DV88+ for use with Progressive Scan NTSC+PAL connected to a Panasonic Plasma??? I was intending to spend 1300 for the DV88 with the Prog Board so I don't want to go any higher than that. Also if the DV88 with board is better than the DV88+ how much are we talking? Anything a normal user would really notice?

    Thanks.

    John.
     
  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Nothing else I would recommend. I also don't think it's worth getting concerned that the Sil chip is slightly better. You're going to get a pretty stonking improvement with the prog output from the plus anyway.

    I'm not in tomorrow.

    Gordon
     
  23. steelej

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    Great thanks Gordon.

    Have a nice day off :)

    John.

    PS. When I get my plasma Gordon, would you be able to do a proper calibration and if so how much would it cost?
     
  24. jimbof

    jimbof
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    Amusingly I spoke to my dealer just now, and told him he could use the same code. When he tried it he said that, and I quote 'the screen has split into 2 pictures and its gone all black and white'!! Anyway I was going to go and pick it up this evening, but I guess I wont be able too now. In the meantime anyone know how to reverse the problems of experimental button pressing?
     
  25. ian_guinan

    ian_guinan
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    Is it possible for you to buy from another dealer? It sounds as if yours doesn't know to make sure that his display device can display progressive..I wouldn't want to have to rely on him for after sales support.

    Regards,
    Ian Guinan
     
  26. jimbof

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    I like your tactful way of saying 'he sounds like a bit of a monkey'. It's just an audio-t shop - and in all fairness the manager there does know is stuff. The other people in the shop are not so great! Not too bothered about after sales support - going direct to Arcam always seems fine anyway. I just wish I could get the wretched player in the first place!
     
  27. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    It seems that not many dealers know how to enable it.... when I told my local dealer how to enable PAL progressive he was amazed. I've spoken to a couple of other dealers since and they didn't know either!

    I suppose Arcam don't want it to be common knowledge..... unless you have access to the Internet or these forums!!
     

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