Arcam Diva 88 + 'v' Denon 2800

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by glenlee, Nov 25, 2002.

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  1. glenlee

    glenlee
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    After all the problems playing dvds on my Fujitsu Plasma using Denon 2800 mk1, I have finally replaced it.

    I thought that the picture quality was ropey because plasma technology was not up to scratch just yet but I was SO VERY WRONG.

    New player on loan from 'Sevenoaks in Hull' is an 'Arcam Diva 88+' and 'ohmygod' it knocks spots off the Denon in all areas.

    Lipsync problems with my region 4 Moulin Rouge when playing the DTS soundtrack on the Denon, there was about a second gap between lips and sound, Arcam - perfect.

    Picture quality on Denon not up to scratch, very blocky with really obvious gradiations between colours, (this I assumed was down to the plasmas limited colour palette but was so very wrong) Arcam - very smooth picture, blacks are blacker, very little colour stepping and a much sharper image.

    Did I mention it is the first licensed Pal progressive player on the market? and it works a treat too. (as we are in the UK and only have access to pal disc (ahem...!)

    :devil: this should be a priority for anyone with PP capable screen)

    Multi regionable - not going in to details but I do believe it is possible (ahem, ahem...!)

    I know it looks as though I'm an Arcam sales rep but I felt I just had to sing about this home cinema experience changing player.

    Has anyone tried to get in touch with Denon helpdesk? Did you get the same 'brushoff' response as I did? "We do not recognise your faults, these must be caused by another part of your setup. Have you thought about changing to a Denon 3802 amp? It has a lipsync delay built in!!!!!!!!!"

    Arcam, has actively contacted me to let me know that there is a software update available for this player, I only bought it three days ago!

    Please ask me some questions and I will try to answer them, if anyone asks me which player to buy out of these 2 I think I will be able to answer!!!

    Cheers for reading, I feel like I have shared!!:)
     
  2. Big_AL007

    Big_AL007
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    The reality is Arcam have made better players for a long time now, glad you woke up and smelt the coffee :D :D
     
  3. gringottsdirect

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    I have a Denon DVD-2800, I tried the Diva 88+, it is excellent.
    I agree.
    There's no argument Arcam are better than Denon in after sales support, in fact that is an understatement.
     
  4. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
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    Hoorah.. another one joins the club..

    Yep very pleased with the DV88+ just gotta upgrade everything else now!

    Matt
     
  5. philipb

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    Looks like I'm gonna have to do it - get the DV88+ to hook up to my new 433 plasma. Can I ask you guys where you got yours and how much? About £1299 seems the going rate from high end shops (Audio-T; Sevenoaks etc) and not much point in shopping around.
     
  6. installer09

    installer09
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    I have a Denon 3800 , imo it was better than the dv88+ and fmj27 , try and get a demo of it before you part with your cash if you havnt already.
     
  7. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Going rate for Arcam DV88+ is about £900, I believe. Don't confuse it with the DV88P which is the older version (DV88) upgraded with a progressive scan board. The DV88+ does progressive scan out of the box.
     
  8. philipb

    philipb
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    Installer - is that the 3800 with PAL PS? Creative Audio have it on offer at a good price and their web site "implies" it does 625p; also the 2800 modded for multiregion and PAL PS.

    NicolasB - who's doing it at that price?
     
  9. installer09

    installer09
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    Yes mine is multi region and pal prog, I payed £850 from Audio T a couple of months ago, also so far no chroma bug , it was very evident in both the Arcams I demoed.
     
  10. NicolasB

    NicolasB
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    Er... good question. :blush: After giving the usual suspects the once-over it looks as though £999 may be a more likely price. That's the official guide-price, so anyone who sells it will have it for that. The old DV88 can be picked up for £900. Sorry 'bout that.
     
  11. sapper

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    I heard that, through this forum, the Arcams suffer from the chroma bug? Is this still the case?

    Adrian
     
  12. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Good advice, everyone interested should try all three. My preference too for DVD-3800.
     
  13. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    The new one too, although £1000 is SRP, most Arcam dealers will probably allow around 10% discount, if they:
    1. Like your face.
    2. Have sold their old stock.
    3. No-one is looking...
     
  14. glenlee

    glenlee
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    Hi, all, glad lots of people agree on how good the Arcam 88+ is, I will have to defend it against the 3800, value for money wise it's cheaper and with (in my opinion) an equal if not better picture. I have demo-ed several different players in the last year.

    Arcam after sales - brilliant.

    No sign of the chroma bug, if it is there I have yet to see it, and believe me I had the Denon 2800 for just short of a year and I am very good at spotting 'CB'.

    Denon make very good amps.

    Arcam make very good DVD players, the 88+ sings and dances!

    Beware of any shop trying to sell on the 88p, this is the old 88 model retro fitted with a prog scan board. Old hybrid technology well worth avoiding, and it's more money.

    As I have had excellent customer service from Sevenoaks in Hull I have to recommend them as my 1st choice retailer, good advice and not too pushy sales team!

    Player sells at £999 less a bit for good bartering techinque!!
     
  15. MarkB4506

    MarkB4506
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    Just on the subject of the DV88P - this is not 'old hybrid technology well worth avoiding'.

    This is a board specially designed for Arcam's players. The Silicon Images' deinterlacers' abilities with 3-2 and 2-2 pulldown, cadence analysis and difficult film-video transitions are well documented.

    The + player uses a deinterlacing facility built into the Vaddis 5 MPEG decoder I dont think it will stand up to a board with a chip running at 6 million GOPS, buffers 4 fields simultaneously for cadence analysis and runs separate proprietary software in an off the shelf coprocessor to help with difficult material.

    Good progressive processing is certainly not 'well worth avoiding'
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  17. glenlee

    glenlee
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    The 88p is still a hybrid.

    It is an older model machine, not designed to do prog. scan. Arcam and SI are both very wise companies but my point was that I'm not sure how you can justify paying the extra money for an older model with new bits in it, ie a 'hybrid', when the 88+ is on the market doing a job it was designed to do.

    If the 88P was the best machine, why would Arcam release 88+?

    I am not sluring the very cabable 88p and saying that all owners should rush out and replace it immediately, simply saying that there is no need to spend the extra money on it if you are looking to buy a new player now.

    Summary = Arcam 88+ very nice picture!!!!!
     
  18. MarkB4506

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    I agree in that its the old story of technology decreasing in price as it matures - but I have to say I disagree with your designation of hybrid - virtually all progressive players use an out-of-house chipset designed by either Silicon Image, Sage/Faroudja or Genesis to deinterlace the digital interlaced video coming off the MPEG decoders.

    Arcam (and Denon) use Silicon Image, Meridian players use Sage in their upcoming progressive upgrade. Are Meridian players costing >2k to be slated as hybrids!!!

    The DV88+ uses the Vaddis 5 MPEG decoder which has the required MLP decoder for DVD Audio.

    The Vaddis 3 decoder in the original DV88 does not have an MLP decoder - thats why the + exists.
    It's effectively a half-way house to the DV89 player which will be a + with DVD-A DACs.

    It just happens that Zoran have incorporated a deinterlacer in the 5 - I dont know its technical characteristics as regards flag or cadence reading etc - they referred me to a sales agent when I enquired! - but like I said I just cant conceive processing power in it like the board from SI.

    My point though is neither player is 'designed' for progressive playback - there is no inherent design anyway - but if Zoran had decided not to incorporate a deinterlacer in the Vaddis 5 the + would still be dependent on the Sil board.

    Note the DV27 which has the Vaddis 5 in its latest incarnation AND the Sil board since the better progressive processing comes from the boards outputs (I got that from Arcam).

    At the end of the day though I agree with one thing - their picture quality is Brill!!!

    Mark
     
  19. glenlee

    glenlee
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    I started the thread saying how good the Arcam player is against the Denon 2800 (mk1) and I am still troubled how Denon could get it so wrong, the picture on that player was (in comparison) very poor, and (in my opinion) should not be on the market.

    What I mean by 'designed' is that the de-interlacing is buillt in to the mainboard, the signal is processed directly by the one chip that takes the info from the disk, I'm sure this is the most efficient way to do it.

    The Denon took the signal, read it like a normal player does and then sent it off to the prog scan chip, and that did all kinds of horrible things like blocky picture and very, very bad lip sync problems.

    I know this would have been the case for the 88P but Arcam, being the wise old company that they are, thought about putting a lipsync delay adjustment into the firmware and got the picture a million times better.

    I know the board gives a great result, but it must add some problems as the 88+ doesn't need the lipsync delay.

    I stand by my wording though,
    Definition of Hybrid is
    - something (as a power plant, vehicle, or electronic circuit) that has two different types of components performing essentially the same function.
    Straight from the dictionary.

    It was never meant as a slur, more advise to wary shoppers. I think you may have taken it the wrong way.
     
  20. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    I guess most will agree that Arcam Diva 88+ is a far better buy than the Denon DVD-2800.
    The 2800 had artifacting problems / lip synch and freezing issues, but when working correctly, the benefit of the Sil503 is apparent.
    Arcam players utilising Sil503 ( Diva 88 with add-on or FMJ-27 ) display the good qualities of the Denon DVD-2800 without the negative issues.
    The new 88+ is an excellent player but personally the PQ isn't as good as Silicon Image achieve, whether in an Arcam or a Denon.

    Denon have replaced the 2800 now and all that really matters is glenlee is delighted with his player.

    The hybrid argument is invalid in this context.
     
  21. MarkB4506

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    It was never meant as a slur, more advise to wary shoppers. I think you may have taken it the wrong way. [/B][/QUOTE]

    No, not at all. It's just friendly banter about the merits of two slightly different players.
    Think I might have to go with gringo on the better quality of a WELL IMPLEMENTED (!) Silicon Image chipset.

    And of course if you're happy with your player- thats all that matters.
    Wary shoppers might still like to compare the two to see which they prefer.

    Sorry forgot to add - the lip-sync delay is a feature of Silicon Image's chipset and is there because of the buffering used for cadence analysis. Evidently the Zoran doesn't do this so watch out for a cadence glitch! - by the time the Zoran deinterlacer sees it , it will probably have sent out at least 1 bad frame.:eek:
     

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