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Arcam by mail order

Discussion in 'Arcam Owners' Forum' started by potshot, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. potshot

    potshot
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    I was surprised to see a internet company advertising the AVR300 for £1195 with free mainland delivery. I thought Arcam didn't allow their products to be sold mail order.

    Good see somebody doing it even if the discount is only 9% off the RRP.

    The more companies that sell on line the better for the consumer.

    I will only give details by pm of the comapny as I am sure arcam won't be too pleased.

    Its about time companies like arcam stopped restrictive practices to keep the price of their products artificially high and fix the price, it seems that certain manufacturers are starting to operate price fixing cartels. Its only a matter of time before they are investigated.
     
  2. Crustyloafer

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  3. ginaandlee

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    You know, i dont look at it that way. I dont mind buying low end products via mail order but i want see and hear a product like the AVR300 before putting my money down. I will also say that a good dealer is worth their weight in gold and personally would pay more for good service than save 10% on mail order and be stuck if theres a question or problem.

    When i was still living in the UK 6 years ago my local dealer was The Audiofile in Bishops Stortford and it was, by far, the best shopping experience ive had with any product. They spent countless hours with me helping me decide what speakers and components to buy, i ended up with Kef and Arcam and havent changed since. Since im in the US now, i havent had a chance to check my local dealer here in Pittsburgh, i will soon though as im in the market for some upgrades.
     
  4. Crustyloafer

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    Hear hear, well said that man.
     
  5. mjn

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    Exactly, as if you'd spend £1200 on something you've never tested!! :eek:
     
  6. AMCross

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    "If anyone from Arcam is reading this post then I look forward to seeing the results"

    I like it :rotfl:
     
  7. AMCross

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    Crustyloafer

    Are you saying this not an Arcam authorised dealer ?
     
  8. potshot

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    There are plenty of people spending more money on line purchases without testing first and they are very happy. I think it is good to see all products availble on line. The company is doing a great service. I am sure crustyloafer will be straight on the phone on monday to arcam.


    Most people make up their minds from reading mags, they dream about owning, go through the demo process and buy. If they couldn't have a demo they would still buy because the mags have created the desire and made them believe need it. Why do you think companies like arcam spend so much on advertising with certain mags, for these to create the desire to sell the product.

    As I said before to stop people buying on line is an attempt to fix prices. It will be defeated.
     
  9. angelislington

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    Can somebody please tell me where the cheapest place to get an Aston Martin DB7 online is please? I don't need to test drive it because my mate down the pub reckons his ex girlfriends dad had one, and it was ace. But I ain't paying retail.
     
  10. Timmy C

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    Without any clever comments, can someone please give me a valid reason why you shouldn't have the option to buy Arcam stuff (or an Aston Martin!) online if that's what you want and that's the way you want to buy it?
     
  11. angelislington

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    Because it's impossible to give the correct level of pre, during and post sales advice and service that the consumer has the right to when making a serious investment. People will always have half answers to how it could work but none that I have yet heard could actually work in the real world. For example, if you bought an Arcam whatever online from a warehouse that happens to be at the opposite end of the country from you and you are having problems getting it to work, what do you do? You can make a phone call and perhaps that would help sort the problem but sometimes it is required to be onsite to solve the problem. If you need to have the amplifier changed then you would have to send it back and wait for the online retailer to check it and then send you a replacement. This could take weeks. If you buy from a b&m retailer, they just bring you out a new one and take the old one away at the same time. Takes minutes.

    Another potential scenario. You have bought an Aston Martin from an online store a considerable distance from you. For some reason the car keeps cutting out when stopping for short periods of time (traffic lights for example). You contact the dealer and they tell you to bring it to them (hundreds of miles...). This obviously isn't possible because of the actual problem. If you are expecting them to arrange collection of the car and get you a replacement you are in dream land pal. That's called service and you don't get that AND get an online discount.

    Just a thought.
     
  12. potshot

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    How can anybody compare a bit electronics from arcam to a aston martin.

    I notice on these forums its only the retailers go on about pre service and the level service you will get from them. But its the consumer who wants to buy on line. What you retailers need to remember is the people buying on line would come into your shop in the first place.

    If you are a consumer and you have been refused arcam by mail order complain to the office of fair trading, its a restrictive practice. I have spoke to the office of fair trading before about this and I was told if they get enough complaints they will investigate. That goes for all suppliers who the way their products are sold. They only do it to keep prices higher than they should be.
     
  13. simonb68

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    Exactly, and therein lies the concern I think. Customers take advantage of advice and demos from dealers, then go online to make the purchase once they have chosen their components. Not only does that then risk the demise of dealers, who in most cases provide a valued service, but in my opinion its just plain immoral.

    I fully understand why Arcam work this way, Rotel are the same, it goes a long way to maintaining customer satisfaction with the brand. In my experience most dealers will give discounts anyway.
     
  14. kid rock

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    I fully agree I always get a good price when I trade in my old stuff for new. If you buy on line you cant trade your stuff in and then have to rely upon selling through the classifieds etc which costs time and money -buying on line has hidden costs like this that people dont always figure on when buying .
     
  15. AMCross

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    "Customers take advantage of advice and demos from dealers, then go online to make the purchase once they have chosen their components. Not only does that then risk the demise of dealers, who in most cases provide a valued service, but in my opinion its just plain immoral.
    "

    And thats where i come back in with my views :)

    Arcam may restrict their items from being purchased online and their dealers may not like it BUT how many of you AV8 owners have been back to their Arcam dealers and asked for the V4 upgrade and they have not been able to help straight away :lesson:

    And i don't know about you but some of these so called dealers(and a i am not saying only Arcam dealers) only want to sell you items that are not selling so well in the first place and they do NOT give you unbiased advice :nono:

    Take my local Sony Centre they claimed Sony would never bring out a HDMI plasma :rotfl:

    Guess what i have stayed clear from them ever since and purchased two plamsa online :smashin:

    PS But i must say give your dealer a chance give him a visit if you like what you see and hear BUY from him as if you abuse the system and then buy on line don't expect the dealer you walked away from to pick up the pieces :clap:
     
  16. Crustyloafer

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    I am not in any way suggesting they are not an authorised dealer, but their online selling practices might put that status at risk.
     
  17. ginaandlee

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    Excuse me, but im not a retailer, i dont even work in the retail industry. Do you expect a local dealer to let you listen and test new hifi then you can walk out the door and get the lowest price possible? Even if Arcam said it was ok for official dealers to sell online, how does that guarentee lower prices? Arcam doesnt owe you anything, you dont have the right to buy their product, if they were fixing prices with every other manufacturer you might have a point but theres a lot more out there that DO sell online - go buy one of those if it upsets you that much.

    Meanwhile, some of us will continue to support our local dealer, getting excellent service and enjoying a quality product.
     
  18. angelislington

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    Some people just want to have their cake and eat it and when they can't get it they throw their toys out of the pram.
     
  19. Mr Perceptive

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    I agree with most of the posters (replies), but equally 'most' dealers would strike a deal to make the sale, whether that be with bundled (free) cables/speakers etc or an over generous trade-in. 9% is easily attainable, I know I've effectively been offered it on an AVR300 by more than one dealer - no names mentioned (these either involved a trade-in or part of a multiple equipment purchase). Even sevenoaks offer free QED cables on some Arcam equipment or currently claim £400 on the speakers of your choice with a DV79/AVR300 package.

    I buy online when I know the service that I will get will be the same as dealing with a retailer, however if I get good service I will buy from a dealer and come back for more. If you get good service support you local dealer otherwise the next time you want to go there he may not be there!

    Mr Perceptive
     
  20. Helicon

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    Apart from a couple of posters on here, nice to see people talking sense. If we all went out of business (as some seem to think on other threads), and it's only then people will realise a specialists dealers worth. Arcam are pretecting their image and quality of manufacturer and service by their retailers, not so called 'price fixing'. And to say they're keeping their prices 'artificially high' takes the **** out of the price point they pitch their products at in the first place. I hope more manufacturers manage to keep their decent products off the net.
     
  21. Timmy C

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    I see your point but I think it would be nice to have the choice. If you buy online and decide the product isn't what you want and the online retailer doesn't have any return or exchange policy then tough, you should have gone to a high street dealer but some people are happy to take that risk. If your item is faulty then obviously you're entitled to a refund or replacement but if it develops a fault later down the line then you have the hassle of sending it back by post but again that's a risk that many are willing to take if they had the option.

    Don't get me wrong,I usually buy from local dealers as it would be daft to spend hundreds or even thousands of pounds without some serious showroom and home demoing but if I want an extra power amp or some more surround speakers to match my existing ones then I will but online if the price is better as I have no need for dealer advice or a demo as I know exactly what I'm after.

    This discussion has cropped up many a time on various boards and as you would expect the high street dealers always defend their corner with the expert knowledge/after sales service arguement (which is fair enough in a lot of cases) but if they're so confident that this is what everyone wants then why are they so worried about online retailers anyway?
     
  22. potshot

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    By the replies I can see that most of you are defending arcams policy of not selling online. But to me it say you are worried how long can arcam and their like stop retailers selling online. I think its only a matter of time now before these restricted practices are looked at.

    I personally think that there will be dealers who compete with the interent and they will compete very well. All the internet will do is remove all the dead wood out of the industry. Remember mail order companies have been around for year undercutting the high st dealer and they mail companies are dealers who sell over the phone at a discount.

    Arcam has always had a policy of keeping their products prices higher than they should be. One time no dealers were allowed to offer a discount. By suppliers getting togther with large retailers like sevonoaks and agreeing not to allow online sales and mail order they are operating a cartel with the aim at fixing prices.
     
  23. Mr Perceptive

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    As do Naim, Meridian, Linn (with the exception of the Classik), etc,etc... Its not just Arcam you should be aiming your point at. Selling online will devalue the high value that all these products have in the second-hand market and the high reputation their delaers (and the manufacturers) have for service and support.

    Mr Perceptive
     
  24. ginaandlee

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    Potshot, if one manufacturer decides to not sell its products online, its NOT a cartel. A cartel would be if all or most of the hifi makers got together and decided to not sell online. A company has a right to decide how much to sell a product for, who can sell that product and how the dealer sells that product.

    If the dealer doesnt agree, they can stop selling that product. If a customer doesnt like the way the manufacturer does business, DONT BUY THEIR PRODUCTS. Theres plenty of other companies that sell online, just pick one of those.
     
  25. SuziB

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    Ginaandlee, I have no idea where you get your information from but you couldn't be more incorrect! As a barrister, I raised this issue sometime ago - so no need to repeat what I said then but in summary, Arcam, nor any other hifi manufacturer, has a right to control pricing nor the distribution of it's products through recognised relationships (ie it can not preclude online sales) provided the products are sold within the market territory indended for them. For instance, a retailer would not be allowed to import a US intended product and sell in the UK, if the manufacturer and or brand owner objects. There is considerable body of EU Directives and UK legislation 'outlawing' what Arcam is trying to do - indeed, a new Directive is currently in motion, which even precludes car manufacturers from having exclusive dealership distribution,and within the EU, such manufacturers have enjoyed considerably historic protection on the basis of economic importance. We can expect more and more EU legislation relating to unlawful control of pricing and distribution.

    There is absolutely nothing Arcam can do to prevent a company selling the products online - indeed the reverse is true, in that retailers can challenge Arcam's restrictive practices, in doing so, seek compensation for restraint of trade.
     
  26. Helicon

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    Nice to see such a stark contrast in opinions to another thread i've been a part of.
    I know if i was an owner of a decent hi-fi company, i would be 110% against my products being sold online, or even mail order over the phone. If i owned the company, wouldn't i have the right to say who kepy MY product!!
    If all these higher grade manuftacurers products were to be allowed on the net, their quality of product, and services that go with them would just spiral downhill. Personally, with the likes of Proac, PMC, Sugden, Naim, Linn, Rega, Clearaudio, M&K etc around, i would hate to see these products being made cheaper and using cheaper components, and eventually being no better than the usual mainstream crap out there.
     
  27. gringottsdirect

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    That's great to hear.
    So you really think I'll be able to order some Naim SBLs from Tesco via Jersey ? :rotfl:
     
  28. John Dawson

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    For the record the dealer mentioned in this thread is not and never has been an Arcam authorised dealer.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  29. Nic Rhodes

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    :) Crap dealer giving duff advice then, best avoid
     
  30. davehk

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    No they don't. The company can decide how much they sell to the dealer for, but they cannot dictate how much the dealer charges. That is call Retail Price Maintenance and it is illegal. I believe any action by the supplier to try to force the dealer to sell at the recommended price, for example, by inventing "supply difficulties", is also illegal and can end the suuplier in court with a hefty fine. Take a look here:

    http://www.consumereducation.org.uk/money/english/prices/01.htm
     
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