Apple TV 4k -> Denon AVR-X8500HA surround speakers not working

spinlock

Novice Member
I installed 5.1 speakers and test tone from 8500 works fine to all speakers. This means wiring is correct, speakers and amplifiers are fine.

Apple TV 4K has audio set to "Dolby Digital 5.1" AND the 8500 detects this because it displays Dolby trademark icon and "DSur" on front display.

However, when I play youtube Dolby 5.1 test videos, the Front Right, Front Left, Center, and Subwoofer work fine, but the Surround Right plays through Front Right and Surround Left plays through Front Left. The Surround speakers are silent through the whole test (I tried 4 different videos).

I have been through all the settings 50 times, can not find a solution.

I have a Tivo Bolt 4K as well, BUT when I start the Youtube app on it, the front display on the 8500 switches from "DSur" to "stereo". I think the youtube app on Tivo is broken because Tivo basically doesn't support apps anymore. I have lots of problems with all apps on Tivo, that is why I bought the Apple TV 4K.

Anyone have this config? Any ideas?

thanks,
 
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Jase

Distinguished Member
I wouldn't trust YouTube videos for testing speakers as they don't seem to work properly. If the Denons internal test tones are fine then that's what I'd trust.

Try something from another App such as Netflix, Disney+ or Amazon Prime Video if you have them and see if they sound ok.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
YouTube do not stream anything with more than 2 channel audio. Everything uploaded to YouTube has its audio downmixed to just 2 channels. You do not get multichannel discrete surround, Atmos or DTS:X audio via YouTube regardless of what people uploading content there believe or what they subsequently labelled it as being.

Everything on YouTube is 2 channel stereo and If you want anything to be portrayed as surround while playing YouTube content then you'd have to use upmixing in order to create pseudo surround from the 2 channels.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
Netflix has some Test Patterns with audio test signals for 5.1 so that's worth trying.


If you use the Search in Netflix they should appear when you key in test p.

IMG_20220109_162650.jpg
 

Oswald

Well-known Member
However, when I play youtube Dolby 5.1 test videos, the Front Right, Front Left, Center, and Subwoofer work fine, but the Surround Right plays through Front Right and Surround Left plays through Front Left. The Surround speakers are silent through the whole test (I tried 4 different videos).
AFAIK the YouTube app on Apple TV doesn't support surround sound (only stereo). Try installing the "Surround Speaker Check" and "Surround Ear Candy" apps on your Apple TV to test surround sound.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
AFAIK the YouTube app on Apple TV doesn't support surround sound (only stereo).



The YouTube app doesn't support surround sound on any device. YouTube do not host anything more than 2 channel stereo. All audio is downmixed to just 2 channels when uploaded onto YouTube's servers,

You cannot get discrete multichannel surround via YouTube regardless of what app or device you use to access it.
 

Oswald

Well-known Member
The YouTube app doesn't support surround sound on any device. YouTube do not host anything more than 2 channel stereo. All audio is downmixed to just 2 channels when uploaded onto YouTube's servers,

You cannot get discrete multichannel surround via YouTube regardless of what app or device you use to access it.
So what? The topic of this thread is about Apple TV.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
So what? The topic of this thread is about Apple TV.

The OP was usiing YouTube to test his surround sound setup and you went on to suggest that it was just a deficiency with the ATV's implementation of YouTube that limits YouTube to just stereo.

The fact of the matter is that you'd only ever get just 2 channel stereo via YouTube regardless of the device or app you use to access YouTube.

It has nothing to do with the ATV and is an issue with YouTube in general. You didn't appear to be aware of this.
 

spinlock

Novice Member
I found "Test Patterns" under Netflix and this confirmed that 5.1 is working fine. NOTE: "Test Pattern (no 's') is a movie, you must search for Test Patterns(with 's') to find the surround test video.

thanks for the info!

PS regarding all youtube apps only support stereo: the experiment I ran clearly indicates that this is NOT TRUE because:
1) The 8500 was clearly detecting Dolby Surround coming from AppleTV-youtube app. Tivo-youtube was detected as stereo.
2) The AppleTV-youtube app was clearly testing at least 3.1 surround properly because I heard the first four test patterns out the the Front Left, then Front Right, then Center, then Subwoofer speakers.

thanks again!
 

Oswald

Well-known Member
Apple TV 4K has audio set to "Dolby Digital 5.1"...
You should leave the Apple TV audio format setting on "Auto".

As I found out recently, by manually setting it to "Dolby Digital 5.1" you are telling the Apple TV to convert all audio to 5.1 before outputting it. That's how your Receiver is getting surround sound from an app that only outputs stereo.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
PS regarding all youtube apps only support stereo: the experiment I ran clearly indicates that this is NOT TRUE because:
1) The 8500 was clearly detecting Dolby Surround coming from AppleTV-youtube app. Tivo-youtube was detected as stereo.
2) The AppleTV-youtube app was clearly testing at least 3.1 surround properly because I heard the first four test patterns out the the Front Left, then Front Right, then Center, then Subwoofer speakers.

thanks again!

This basically illustrates why I've to go into so much detail to expel the belief some people still have that YouTube host multichannel surround. No, YouTube do not provide any access to anything but 2 channel stereo. You cannot get multichannel surround via YouTube regardkless of the device you are using!


This is a fact. YouTube doesn't host anything but 2 channel audio. YouTube downmix all multichannel formatted audio uploaded to their servers and you cannot and do not get multichannel surrounf via YouTube.


Dolby Surround is an upmixing mode applied by the AV receiver and not a format being streamed to it. Dolby Surround isn't coming from your ATV and it is processing designed to upmix audio. It is applicable to any format apart from Atmos or DTS:X. If applied to DTS:X then is will result in the audio reverting to the DTS-HD formatted audio packaged with the DTS:X metadata and the Dolby Surround Upmixing is applied to that. If Applied to Atmos then the AV receiver will bypass the Dolby Surround Upmixing and give you Atmos.



You were applying Dolby Surround Upmixing to the 2 channel audio that you were sourcing via YouTube.


Dolby Surround upmixer
If you invest in building a Dolby Atmos home theater, you want to get full use of it, even if the content you’re playing isn’t mixed in Dolby Atmos. That’s where the Dolby Surround upmixer plays a big role.
When enabled, the Dolby Surround upmixer expands the audio of legacy channel-based content to take advantage of your entire system, including overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers. The Dolby Surround upmixer processes and expands the channel-based soundtrack to create a highly accurate rendering of the environment in the movie while simultaneously honoring and maintaining the artist’s intent for the mix.
Unlike previous wideband upmixing technologies, the Dolby Surround upmixer operates in the frequency domain, decoding and processing multiple perceptually spaced frequency bands for a fine- grained analysis of the source signal. Dolby Surround upmixer individually steers these frequency bands, producing a highly precise surround-sound field with enhanced spacious ambience. The Dolby Surround upmixer is included in the Dolby Atmos technology bundle and replaces the Dolby Pro Logic II family of upmixers, offering greater flexibility and superior audio performance.
To maintain the frontal spatial audio image, the upmixer will not send upmixed audio to speakers that are located between the left, center, and right speakers or to the left wide and right wide speakers. Additionally, upmixed audio is not sent to the center surround speaker. Spatial imaging is complemented through the use of overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers in these cases.

The only YouTube service to include discrete 5.1 surround is YouTube TV which can host Dolby Digital 5.1. YouTobe TV should not be confused with conventional YouTube though:





Again, don't confuse this with the YouTube service where youupload, share and access video content. THat service is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of audio and all content hosted for that service has its audio dowmised to just 2 channels!











 
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spinlock

Novice Member
This basically illustrates why I've to go into so much detail to expel the belief some people still have that YouTube host multichannel surround. No, YouTube do not provide any access to anything but 2 channel stereo. You cannot get multichannel surround via YouTube regardkless of the device you are using!


This is a fact. YouTube doesn't host anything but 2 channel audio. YouTube downmix all multichannel formatted audio uploaded to their servers and you cannot and do not get multichannel surrounf via YouTube.


Dolby Surround is an upmixing mode applied by the AV receiver and not a format being streamed to it. Dolby Surround isn't coming from your ATV and it is processing designed to upmix audio. It is applicable to any format apart from Atmos or DTS:X. If applied to DTS:X then is will result in the audio reverting to the DTS-HD formatted audio packaged with the DTS:X metadata and the Dolby Surround Upmixing is applied to that. If Applied to Atmos then the AV receiver will bypass the Dolby Surround Upmixing and give you Atmos.



You were applying Dolby Surround Upmixing to the 2 channel audio that you were sourcing via YouTube.


Dolby Surround upmixer
If you invest in building a Dolby Atmos home theater, you want to get full use of it, even if the content you’re playing isn’t mixed in Dolby Atmos. That’s where the Dolby Surround upmixer plays a big role.
When enabled, the Dolby Surround upmixer expands the audio of legacy channel-based content to take advantage of your entire system, including overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers. The Dolby Surround upmixer processes and expands the channel-based soundtrack to create a highly accurate rendering of the environment in the movie while simultaneously honoring and maintaining the artist’s intent for the mix.
Unlike previous wideband upmixing technologies, the Dolby Surround upmixer operates in the frequency domain, decoding and processing multiple perceptually spaced frequency bands for a fine- grained analysis of the source signal. Dolby Surround upmixer individually steers these frequency bands, producing a highly precise surround-sound field with enhanced spacious ambience. The Dolby Surround upmixer is included in the Dolby Atmos technology bundle and replaces the Dolby Pro Logic II family of upmixers, offering greater flexibility and superior audio performance.
To maintain the frontal spatial audio image, the upmixer will not send upmixed audio to speakers that are located between the left, center, and right speakers or to the left wide and right wide speakers. Additionally, upmixed audio is not sent to the center surround speaker. Spatial imaging is complemented through the use of overhead or Dolby Atmos enabled speakers in these cases.

The only YouTube service to include discrete 5.1 surround is YouTube TV which can host Dolby Digital 5.1. YouTobe TV should not be confused with conventional YouTube though:





Again, don't confuse this with the YouTube service where youupload, share and access video content. THat service is restricted to no more than just 2 channels of audio and all content hosted for that service has its audio dowmised to just 2 channels!












Why does Tivo-youtube app behave differently from AppleTV-youtube app?

Reminder:
1) AppleTV4K-youtube; the 8500 detects this because it displays Dolby trademark icon and "DSur" on front display continuously.
2) TivoBolt4K-youtube causes the front display on the 8500 switches from "DSur" to "stereo".
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Dolby Surround is an upmixing mode. The ATV is not outputting Dollby Surround to your AV receiver.

All that you are telling me is that you've got Dolby Surround upmixing engaged relative yo your Apple TV source, but not in association with your TiVo.

Dolby Surround is a mode on your AV receiver and as with all the upmixing modes on that receiver, you can have different modes selected for different source or no mode at all in operation.



No, you are not getting discrete multichannel discrete surround sound via YouTube. This is regardless of the source you are using. YouTube doesn't host such audio.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
If still in denial about this then I'd suggest you fo into the AV receiver's configuraation, down into the general option and into the INFORMATION section. Look in the AUDIO INFO and you will see that the incoming audio that you keep insisting is multichannel is in fact nothing more than 2 channel.
 
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spinlock

Novice Member
"The ATV is not outputting Dollby Surround to your AV receiver"

The display on the Denon AVR-X8500HA clearly indicates that it does.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The display on the Denon AVR-X8500HA clearly indicates that it does.


No it doesn't, not if it is telling you DOLBY SURROUND. That is not an indication of you receiving multichannel surround sound or what it is receiving from the ATV. DOLBY SURROUND is an upmixing mode applied by the AV receiver to the incoming audio and not an audio format. THe audio format is the information indicated prior the the DSur on the display. All the AV receiver is telling you is that Dolby Surround Upmixing is being applied to the format the AV receiver is receiving from the source.


Do as I suggest and go look in AUDIO INFORMATION.


You've got DSU turned on for the ATV source on the AVR. This is upmixing the 2 channel YouTube sourced audio. This is why you hear audio via the front 3 speakers and the sub. The surrounds would also be active if the source contained anything the processing determined would or should be potrayed by them, but obviously the algorithms used by the DSU processing doesn't deem anythingf as being surround fodder..




You are not getting discrete multichannel audio via YouTube, you are creating pseudo additional channels using Dolby Surround Upmixing from the 2 channel audio the AV receiver is getting. This processing is being performed by your AV receiver and can be disengaged by turning off the Dolby Surround uopmixing. Hold Down the MOVIE button on your remote and select the option devoid of DOLBY SURROUND.
 
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Jase

Distinguished Member
@spinlock as @dante01 has mentioned above if you go into the Denons setup menu and scroll down to General - Information - Audio you'll see what format, signal etc you're receiving.

You can also press the Info button on the remote and the OSD will pop up and show you the Input Signal etc.

 

gibbsy

Moderator
Just press the info button on the remote. It will show you the actual signal input in it's native form. From the free You Tube app it will clearly show a stereo input.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
You should leave the Apple TV audio format setting on "Auto".

As I found out recently, by manually setting it to "Dolby Digital 5.1" you are telling the Apple TV to convert all audio to 5.1 before outputting it. That's how your Receiver is getting surround sound from an app that only outputs stereo.
@spinlock

It's also worth double-checking what @Oswald posted above about the ATV audio settings.
 

JoaWe

Standard Member
Also worth mentioning is that it is the uploaded videos that get 2.0. If you check "Movies and series" in the YouTube app and watch for example "Fantastic Beasts ..." there is a surround option under the "more" button when playing!
 

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