Apple fan or not? Part II

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enigma1701

Well-known Member
I thought lccz was joking about starting pt2!

There's something just wrong about the grandson emailing a youtube link to granny, what if granny was on a plane or her Internet was bust? Shes not as savvy as granny no.2 so she couldn't fix it! But alas, it does solve the divx or mkv problem until apple decide they don't want anyone using YouTube, a wee fallout with google maybe and you've 50 million iPad and iPhone users who just wished they could copy across a mkv!

Pervious points about inspirational apple are good tho! Closed systems aside, I'm pretty sure everyone would have to agree that engineering and design wise they produce excellent products!

By that I mean sexy aesthetically pleasing devices that somehow have a target market from 8 to 80 - no one else in the biz manages to pull it off like them!

And remember, I'm a bit of a hater! Even tho the curves on my iPhone are trying to change my mind!!!!
 

davidwatsonok

Well-known Member
Not all Apple fans are sheep trapped in the constant upgrade cycle. My Mac is a teenager, bought in 1999 and still in daily use. I can't justify an iPhone even though I'd like one, so have an Android which was free on my £10/m contract.

Given the age and spec of my old Mac I am due to upgrade soon with a new Mini to be used as part of a media set-up connected to the TV, and I'd love an iPad to work alongside it as well as provide some new functionality that would be useful in my work. Just need to find £1.8k to pay for it all.
 
Iccz said:
Procedure, every time a thread hits 1000 posts we have to start a new one :thumbsup:
Are you sure it is not because you are really running these boards on apple hardware/software and are constraint :devil:

Ps. I also thought you were joking, shame this second part could not start with Graham's summary :)
 
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nonumb

Well-known Member
I do think apple products are great and do look good but I just can't see myself buying any. I was ready with an open mind when I got my new phone and between the 4s and the galaxy s3 there was no competition, the iPhones was lower spec less comfortable in the hand and more expensive.


davidwatsonok said:
Not all Apple fans are sheep trapped in the constant upgrade cycle. My Mac is a teenager, bought in 1999 and still in daily use. I can't justify an iPhone even though I'd like one, so have an Android which was free on my £10/m contract.

Given the age and spec of my old Mac I am due to upgrade soon with a new Mini to be used as part of a media set-up connected to the TV, and I'd love an iPad to work alongside it as well as provide some new functionality that would be useful in my work. Just need to find £1.8k to pay for it all.
Or pay much less either for an apple Tv and nas or a revo or similar. If it's just for media duties I really don't get how a mac mini makes sense.

Ipad fair enough there are alternatives but I do understand the ipad still rules the roost for the price band.

I would buy apple products if there wasn't something cheaper which does the same thing. Often with more options open. What does annoy me is when my friends say oh a MacBook Pro is amazing I have to buy one when they are comparing it to a £250 laptop they bought a few years ago. Yes they are very good but the same people wouldn't consider a high end non mac machine. They are only considering it because of the hype not because they have analysed their needs and budget and got the best think for it (which may well be a mbp).

Someone was telling me about how amazing their MacBook air was and how it was so much better than my netbook, granted it is better but they only went online and on office with it. Mine cost £180 with a 64gb ssd and theirs cost £1k or whatever. Of course it's going to be better but 5x better for Internet and office? Not convinced. Btw this was a couple of models ago.

I had a friend who was amazed with imovie and he was telling me how amazing it is, it's not a new thing! The same sort of thing has been around for years and years.

I guess that's where apple are good getting the tech into the hands of people who won't do any research. (Not saying all people who own apple products are the same.)
 

enigma1701

Well-known Member
nonumb said:
I do think apple products are great and do look good but I just can't see myself buying any. I was ready with an open mind when I got my new phone and between the 4s and the galaxy s3 there was no competition, the iPhones was lower spec less comfortable in the hand and more expensive.

Or pay much less either for an apple Tv and nas or a revo or similar. If it's just for media duties I really don't get how a mac mini makes sense.

Ipad fair enough there are alternatives but I do understand the ipad still rules the roost for the price band.

I would buy apple products if there wasn't something cheaper which does the same thing. Often with more options open. What does annoy me is when my friends say oh a MacBook Pro is amazing I have to buy one when they are comparing it to a £250 laptop they bought a few years ago. Yes they are very good but the same people wouldn't consider a high end non mac machine. They are only considering it because of the hype not because they have analysed their needs and budget and got the best think for it (which may well be a mbp).

Someone was telling me about how amazing their MacBook air was and how it was so much better than my netbook, granted it is better but they only went online and on office with it. Mine cost £180 with a 64gb ssd and theirs cost £1k or whatever. Of course it's going to be better but 5x better for Internet and office? Not convinced. Btw this was a couple of models ago.

I had a friend who was amazed with imovie and he was telling me how amazing it is, it's not a new thing! The same sort of thing has been around for years and years.

I guess that's where apple are good getting the tech into the hands of people who won't do any research. (Not saying all people who own apple products are the same.)
Yup price wise they are always very expensive, I'm sure some people will say you only get what you pay for but if your playing a lot less for something you can accept a few teething problems!
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
I'm pretty open about using any manufacturers products. For computers I use windows, and whilst I have nothing against Apple, I don't see any reason to change that.

Apple's mobile products - media players, phones and tablets are excellent in terms of design, looks and functionality. I know they are locked down but in doing so they have produced a very inuitive interface. My family has owned many iPods, iPads and iPhones. For example, when it came to buying my tablet, I really liked the idea of a Galaxy tab but in the end went for an iPad because it just works and is so well supported.

Things I don't like about Apple

(i) Flakey hardware and Apple's support policy. I have had 3 Nanos, 2 Touches and 1 iPhone that have just died through normal use. I've also had others that are still going strong. What grieves me is that the ones that have died have been used normally, not excessively but have failed - usually down to the battery but not always. Nanos - all batteries. iPhone - power switch after a few weeks. Touch screen sensitivity and WiFi failure. All these devices have been in immaculate condition but have just failed. This is not something I am used to. Normally my electronics lasts forever and is usually disposed of when obsolete in full working order (just got rid of fully working, immaculate Sony minidisk player for example). I apprecaite that any electronics can fail but my experience with Apple current sits at around 50%. Apple's response is that if it is over a year old, the repair cost is not that much less than buying a new one. So now I buy extended warranties for all my Apple equipment and it is the only manufacturer I feel obliged to do this for.

(ii) Proprietary nature. I happen to like iTunes and I know there are alternatives but for all intents and purposes, most users are forced to use it. That's okay, but if you don't watch what you are doing, an iTunes user will soon find Safari on his PC. Again I wouldn't mind but Apple got all high and mighty over Microsoft, Windows and Internet Explorer but what they do is worse. iPad - Safari - take it or leave it. You can sort of put Chrome on, but apple lock away the cookies so they are only available to Safari. No USB - everyone uses USB don't they. No flash - I knew this before I bought my iPad but I had no idea how many big name websites would be unavailable to Apple users.

(iii) iTunes, album art. So you buy your 8 year old an iPod. To allow them to access album art, you have to set them up an account with a method of payment on it!!! Again, I know there are ways around this, but most won't be in the know and it would be too much hassle for others.

(iv) Expandability. It's actually great marketing, but when I bought my iPad I was scared into buying a lot more than I need. I started out thinking 16Gb would be enough, but quickly decided that 32GB would be sufficient. But I got scared into thinking 'what if it isn't' and in the end played safe with a 64GB. Now that I have had it a few months I can see that 32GB would have been more than enough. But at the time the finality of the choice because of no upgrade path scared me into buying something I didn't need.

(v) Updates are too regular. You spend £500 on a new device and in less than a year it is obsolete, replaced with a new model. At first it was justified because there were some big advances, but now Apple are continuing the practice with updates which are little more than cosmetic. I don't get drawn into the upgradeitus but all the same feel pretty bad to know that my 6 month old purchase is no longer the latest model.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
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Autopilot

Distinguished Member
(v) Updates are too regular. You spend £500 on a new device and in less than a year it is obsolete, replaced with a new model. At first it was justified because there were some big advances, but now Apple are continuing the practice with updates which are little more than cosmetic. I don't get drawn into the upgradeitus but all the same feel pretty bad to know that my 6 month old purchase is no longer the latest model.
Updates too regular?

Which mobile manufacturers dont release updated hardware every 12 months?

And why do they become obsolete?

My GF has my old iPhone 3GS, almost 4 years old running the lastest version of iOS. I have mates with Andriod phones that most likely won't see an update. Apple support legacy iphone hardware a lot more than any other mobile manufacturer.
 
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enigma1701

Well-known Member
Updates too regular?

Which mobile manufacturers dont release updated hardware every 12 months?

And why do they become obsolete?

My GF has my old iPhone 3GS, almost 4 years old running the lastest version of iOS. I have mates with Andriod phones that most likely won't see an update. Apple support legacy iphone hardware a lot more than any other mobile manufacturer.
Umm, I'm not sure about that one, but then again the product lists are a much slimmer with apple. HTC cover the market in 20 different handsets to suit all types of users, whereas apple hit the nail on the head with aesthetics!

But we discussed the built in obsolecence in Pt. 1, perfect system they run, its not about the product breaking after 12/18 months, its the slight adjustments and we'll stop providing updates for this version but we'll update another....

Its a fantastic business model and if others could get away with it they would!
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
And why do they become obsolete?
Obsolete as in 'no longer produced' - a factual definition

Or Obsolete as 'I no longer have the latest model' - an emotional definition

There is nothing to stop you continue using an obsolete product.

Which mobile manufacturers dont release updated hardware every 12 months?
Mind you our iPod touches have become truely obsolete in a way because Apple have continued developing the operating system but not included older iPod Touches. So when you go to the app store it is quite common to find applications that won't run on it because they need a newer IOS.

Agree, possibly a disease of the mobile market. I guess you have to do it with phones, possibly tablets otherwise someone else will be ahead. Not sure about iPod Nanos though, Apple don't really have competition yet they still seem to change them each year - most of the changes have been trivial, changes for change sake.

Cheers,

Nigel
 
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RobM

Distinguished Member
I don't see the problem with annual upgrades, so long as previous models still work and are still supported. Sure, this years Nano might not be much different to the one you bought last year, but so long as last years still works, is still supported and still does a good job (which of course it does if you're saying the difference between that and the new one is minimal) then what's the problem?

The only thing I can see is the personal dissatisfaction of not owning the latest model, but unless you bought it as a fashion statement, or a statement of wealth, that's quite an odd thing to get upset about. Nothing stays new forever, be that gadgets, clothes, cars, houses or anything else.

I'd be more annoyed if I had bought something, a smartphone perhaps, on a 24-month contract only to find the manufacturer stopped supporting it with updates before my contract had ended. The least I expect is the manufacturers commitment to match my own.
 

Desmo

Distinguished Member
nheather said:
You can sort of put Chrome on, but apple lock away the cookies so they are only available to Safari.
Then use one of the other many browsers that have been available for years :)

I use iCab Mobile and haven't touched Safari for years now.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
nheather said:
You can sort of put Chrome on, but apple lock away the cookies so they are only available to Safari.
Not sure what you mean, but Chrome uses cookies as does any third party browser on the iPad/iPhone.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
I don't see the problem with annual upgrades, so long as previous models still work and are still supported. Sure, this years Nano might not be much different to the one you bought last year, but so long as last years still works, is still supported and still does a good job (which of course it does if you're saying the difference between that and the new one is minimal) then what's the problem?

The only thing I can see is the personal dissatisfaction of not owning the latest model, but unless you bought it as a fashion statement, or a statement of wealth, that's quite an odd thing to get upset about. Nothing stays new forever, be that gadgets, clothes, cars, houses or anything else.

I'd be more annoyed if I had bought something, a smartphone perhaps, on a 24-month contract only to find the manufacturer stopped supporting it with updates before my contract had ended. The least I expect is the manufacturers commitment to match my own.
Agree.

I actually find most years there are significant updates, some more than others. Compare it to other products - TV's, CD players, home cinema. They usually all get updated each year with nothing more than a few superficial tweaks. Not wanting to upgrade each 12/24 months is fair enough, but to say they make little change is an odd thing to say considering Smartphones and tablets are probably the fastest moving and developing technology.
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
Then use one of the other many browsers that have been available for years
Talking about the iPad in particular - that hasn't even been around for years.

As far as I know Safari and Chrome are the only ones available on the iPad.

Not sure what you mean, but Chrome uses cookies as does any third party browser on the iPad/iPhone.
It's not cookies, sorry about that, my memory failed me. There are a few Apple restictions. One it has to use Safari backend code so Chrome will always perform slower than Safari. Also Safari is permitted to use the 'Nitro' libraries but Chrome isn't - again performance advantage to Safari.

Apple does not allow the user to select a default browser. So even if you've decided to go with Chrome if you open a link from an email, an application etc. it will always open Safari.

I tried using Chrome but found that it was so hamstrung it wasn't worth the swap from Safari.

Chrome on iOS is sluggish, but at least it syncs | ExtremeTech

Can you imagine how much bleating Apple would do if Microsoft put those sort of restrictions on non-IE browsers. Double standards.

I don't see the problem with annual upgrades, so long as previous models still work and are still supported.
touch 4th gen - sep 2010
touch 3rd gen - sep 2009
touch 2nd gen - sep 2008
touch 1st gen - feb 2008

IOS support

IOS 6 - 4th gen only
IOS 5 - 3rd and 4th
IOS 4 - 3rd and 2nd

So they do drop support quite quickly. Yes they still run, but you will find more and more as my daughter has then when she downloads the latest apps they won't run.



Cheers,

Nigel
 
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Inked

Distinguished Member
nheather said:
Talking about the iPad in particular - that hasn't even been around for years.

As far as I know Safari and Chrome are the only ones available on the iPad.
iPads have been available for over two years, and Desmo has already mentioned iCab as an alternative browser (in the post you quoted). There is also Atomic Web which I use.
 
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balidey

Distinguished Member
I try and stay out of these sort of threads as most of what I write tends to sound Anti-Apple, but its not meant to be. But....

Watching BBC news this morning. Woman presenting about the Olympics talking to camera with ipad in hand. I'm sure if she had a netbook with her notes on she wouldn't have felt the need to hold that in shot.
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
iPads have been available for over two years
I know it is - it is just that when someone says something has been around for years, it normally means a long time not just a couple of years.

Desmo has already mentioned iCab as an alternative browser (in the post you quoted). There is also Atomic Web which I use.
Can you install iCab and Atomic Web as proper browsers - i.e. they become the default browser?

If not then my comment still stands. I didn't say there was anything wrong about Safari (I'm happy to use it) just that Apple put deliberate restrictions in place to limit the effectivity of other browsers. That's my point - that they don't freely let you choose which browser to use - and given they took MS to court to force them to do just that, I think that is pretty much double standards.

Remember, that Apples complaint about IE wasn't that you couldn't have other browsers - you could even before the complaint was made, you could even install others properly so that they became the default browser. No Apple's complaint was that IE came with the operating system and you couldn't uninstall it which meant that customers were more likely to use IE. Now forgive me if I'm wrong but after all that bleating Apple seem to be doing the exact same thing but even more prohibitive than MS ever were.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

Inked

Distinguished Member
nheather said:
I know it is - it is just that when someone says something has been around for years, it normally means a long time not just a couple of years.

Can you install iCab and Atomic Web as proper browsers - i.e. they become the default browser?

If not then my comment still stands. I didn't say there was anything wrong about Safari (I'm happy to use it) just that Apple put deliberate restrictions in place to limit the effectivity of other browsers. That's my point - that they don't freely let you choose which browser to use - and given they took MS to court to force them to do just that, I think that is pretty much double standards.

Remember, that Apples complaint about IE wasn't that you couldn't have other browsers - you could even before the complaint was made, you could even install others properly so that they became the default browser. No Apple's complaint was that IE came with the operating system and you couldn't uninstall it which meant that customers were more likely to use IE. Now forgive me if I'm wrong but after all that bleating Apple seem to be doing the exact same thing but even more prohibitive than MS ever were.

Cheers,

Nigel
Surely the word years just means more than one year.

You mentioned in your post that as far as you were aware there was only Safari and Chrome, that is what I was commenting on, not whether other browsers could be set as default.
 
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