Apparently none of this would have happened if banks charged for current accouts

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by BISHI, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. BISHI

    BISHI
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  2. sidicks

    sidicks
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    The two issues are related, but one is NOT an excuse for the other.

    Clearly 'free' banking costs the banks significant amount in terms of branch overheads, cash management, DD and standing order management, online banking services etc.

    Banks are able to offer these services free as they are subsidised by money made elsewhere in the business.

    If banks are not allowed to use cash elsewhere in their business then inevitably they will be forced to charge for current accounts etc.

    However, saying that mis-selling occured because banks need to make money to offset losses on current accounts is scandalous and cannot be an excuse for any mis-selling that occured.
    :nono:
     
  3. BISHI

    BISHI
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    The trouble is you do not have the option to not have a bank account do you ..? And I'm pretty sure most banks are announcing reasonable quarterly profits despite the current climate and fines. It must be coming from somewhere and charging everyone for their accounts wool significantly increase profits and, no doubt, bonuses. To suggest this in the current climate will only serve to infuriate the public further and again demonstrates how totally out of touch with their core customers heads of banks are.
     
  4. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
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    Maybe, maybe not. I pay to bank at the moment and hand over £90 per annum to do so. Scandalous? Well, when I figure the cost of the breakdown cover and travel insurance I get as well as part of the deal, it is a zero sum. The bank gets £90 off me (and I haven't claimed on either this year) but given I was spending roughly that much on these two items anyway, it isn't the "how are these bastards getting away with it?" so much as "meh, makes sense."
     
  5. BISHI

    BISHI
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    Sounds like a reasonable deal. I get travel insurance as long as I deposit at least 1 K a month into the account and it costs nothing. We use that as our joint account.
     
  6. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Other retailers are making profits, should they be offering free services too?

    It must be quite obvious that it costs a bank to manage a current account and the associated services.

    One of the necessary implications of the proposal (widely supported on this forum) to separate investment banks from retail banks is that the profits from the former will no longer be available to support the latter.

    See above - nothing more needs to be said....
     
  7. BISHI

    BISHI
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    I'm not giving other businesses my money to invest or paying them a healthy chunk of interest on my mortgage. I buy give money to shops on exchange for things, I give money to banks so that they can make profit from it. IMO that's a fair agreement .
     
  8. BISHI

    BISHI
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    How much impact on interest rates for savers is as a result of the actions of investment banks.? And before you reply with yet another question it is a genuine query I do not know the answer to but assume from experience that you do..!
     
  9. Badger0-0

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    I really give up when it comes to some of the answers on here.

    Let's go back to basics and realise that banks are ripping us off every way they can, imo.

    You quite often have to pay to take your own money out if you're in a poor area and £1.85 when you've only £15 in your account isn't funny.
    Just another stitch up, along with the insurance companies, which made it practically impossible to get paid in cash anymore, imo.

    Fwiw, I have a paid for account, that gives me travel insurance, breakdown cover and a load of tosh that I'll never use.
    I pay more than what I get out of it, btw.
    But I'm earning, can afford it and don't mind paying it.

    Forcing everyone to pay is just wrong, imo.
     
  10. MikeTV

    MikeTV
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    And yet, the banks that didn't do any misselling are offering free accounts too, and still making profits.

    It seems that "Sir David Walker" is cut from the "Bob Diamond" mold. Or should that be "mould"? Fungal species.

    Another banker apologist heading up Barclays, great!
     
  11. EarthRod

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    I have banked with Barclays since 1972 and in all that time current accounts (or any other type of account) has cost nothing. In fact, for a few years, I was paid interest on the balance in my accounts.

    If they decide to charge for current accounts I will simply close ALL my Barclays accounts, including various savings accounts, and move elsewhere.

    Other types of banks, who have no intention to charge for current accounts, must be rubbing their hands with glee when they heard this ill-judged stupid announcement. They can now prepare for the massive shift.

    Maybe I should start moving accounts around now.

    :facepalm:
     
  12. Toko Black

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    ... they are charging though, just not directly.

    If you have an account with a particular bank, you are more likely to take other services out with that bank such as loans or mortgages.
    Not everyone does and shop around, but historically that is how the majority of people behave.

    A free account is only free in that to open and use it while in the black doesn't cost you money.
    However, if you go into the red or above any interest free overdraft agreements, you start paying interest and in many cases penalties.

    They also get fees from credit card transactions of free accounts using cards they have issued for sales. Most people do take credit cards from their banks associated with their current accounts.
     
  13. karkus30

    karkus30
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    LOL how funny. People save the banks, banks screw the people.

    It was obviously the next step and will be adopted by all banks in the coming year.
    Until people accept how banks work and their complicity with the Government none of this will change. The next step is a cashless society and then they finally own us all lock stock and barrel. They will bleed the poor dry.

    Step by step:

    Governments get the banks to print lots of money to create steady inflation. This pushes up wages, commodities and house prices and reduces interest rates.

    The reduced interest rates mean that capital assets like houses become more attractive to investors because saving doesn't pay and low interest rates mean loans are readily available. This is the easy money stage.

    Banks lend more and more money through various instruments that target the less well off who will pay a greater rate of interest as a reward for the banks apparent risk. This is sub prime lending. The greed of the banks resulted in the Collateralised debt Obligations which eventually went sour.

    The more they lend the more the money supply expands and wages and house prices rise exponentially. This apparent rise ( it's not a rise in value it's a rise in price ) makes everyone happily borrow greater amounts due to the increased confidence and feel good factor. This increases inflation faster, but the CPI cleverly hides the truth that the economy is over heating.

    This growing bubble helps the Government by creating rising wages with fixed tax bands. This is called 'band creep' as the money in peoples pocket rises, but the true value falls thus the Government extracts more tax without anyone noticing it. The greater inflation also means that the money borrowed from the people as tax debt is reduced year on year. Effectively they can borrow more at today's value and ensure it is never paid back. It means they can splurge on things like the Olympics, or give money away as high value contracts to the rich lobbyists and friends. Take Bernie Ecclestone who had a dual carriageway built to his racetrack at Silverstone all paid for by the public, or G4S that had no competition when they were given the contract for Olympic Security. This splurging keeps the voters happy and adds to the feel good factor which the media blare out everywhere as photo opportunities abound. It keeps the Governments in power and the unholy alliance with the banks above scrutiny.

    When eventually the bubble must be burst ( and it always has to be burst in any Ponzi scheme ) it is the public that suffers. It always gets blamed on the people for outrageous spending and of course the speculators ( who have nothing to do with it at all, they just blame the casino culture because its very easy to blame the Ferrari driving, Champagne swilling culture which is high profile, yet these people have nothing to do with a collapse perpetrated by the banks and Government). The Government then uses the people's money to bail out the banks at today's rate, while simultaneously pumping in more money to prevent deflation and thereby wiping out this loan by a rising money supply which is inflationary.

    The Government then blames the banks, a few people get fired, some fines get thrown about, they promise tighter regulation and all manner of harshness. Eventually the dust settles and Government and banks get right back to the business of pulling the wool over the publics eyes while they systematically pluck their wallets and purses.

    Actually charging for bank accounts is symptomatic of a free market banking system, yet there is no free market banking system. Under a free market system the banks would likely charge a rate to high risk bank users, but the difference would be a choice for consumers. If they implement it now under the Government/bank monopolistic system it's just another way to extract more money from the long suffering public. It's all about extracting as much as they can because they are a private business with shareholders and high paid employees. That they do it under a fully protected monopoly with the Governments direct involvement and the safety net of a public funded bailout.

    Seriously you couldn't make it up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  14. sidicks

    sidicks
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    It appears that much of it you DO make up!
     
  15. Ruperts slippers

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    Used to love picking up my brown wage packet with my name on the front and a little wage slip inside...
    The thing that irks me with the banks is any financial slip up and there on you with there charges,whereas before the crunch they had a more flexible attitude.
    Of course these charges only effect those with money problems so extracting more money they dont have just exacerbates the situation..
    Should of let them all go under yrs ago.
     
  16. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    Amazing how one step leads to another in a defined well-worn pattern.

    Hold on - of course there are an infinite number of steps leading in all directions and a multiple choice of paths are available.

    Karkus30 has made a choice of steps which match his particular agenda.

    ...Again.
     
  17. kav

    kav
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    Not that I want all banks to start charging, but isn't the UK the exception rather than the rule, in that fees are charged for current accounts in most countries?
     
  18. karkus30

    karkus30
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    It appears I'm in good company :)
     
  19. karkus30

    karkus30
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    It's amazing how you maintain the the well defined position of chief critic, which appears to be your particular ego trip.
     
  20. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Yes, I was surprised to see "free" banking when I moved to the UK. But not as surprised as that people really think it is free in the UK. I really can't believe that people think it ever was free. Free seems to have been taken on a new mening in the uk, as in free at the point of use and nobody cares in the mean time that it actually is not free at all until it all goes wrong. Bit like the NHS, yes free at the point of use, but don't ever forget that providing this free service costs us billions. How is that free?
     
  21. EarthRod

    EarthRod
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    Quite understand that nothing is free. That is a given.

    However, I've had two total knee replacements carried out under the NHS and they didn't cost me one penny. These are major operations and under private medical care would cost a small fortune. Yes - I pay NI.

    Yes. I understand that nothing is free and the NHS costs billions. But if everybody had private medical insurance cover and the NHS didn't exist would the cost be the same billions of pounds? Yes, of course it would.

    The same applies to banking. Of course it's not free - nothing ever is. Except posting on AVForums.com is free. Er...
     
  22. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    I think we are in agreement anyway, other than that your knee operations would also have been "free" under another insurance if you bought the cover for it :) I've lived in places where you need your own insurance and it is fine as well, just a different pot of money where it comes from. Under neither system it is free though.
     
  23. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    To you it might be, but many posters on here and in the real world don't seem to be able to make the distinction anymore and keep calling it free.


    And unfortunately NI is not the only source of funding for the NHS, it should, but it isn't enough and herein lies the problem with these free services that are not free and have never been free. They cost an awful lot of money. And when one source isn't enough it gets topped up via another source.

    14% to pay out of a renumeration to an employee to pay for these services and to then have it topped up via general taxation is not good value for money in my opinion. It should be less to deliver more as a safety net to those who can't. And opted out for everyone else such that the true price of these free service can be shown and choice will become available and service provision will increase.
     
  24. karkus30

    karkus30
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    It's also interesting that if you had a private operation on your knees in Germany the cost saving is over 30% same for France. Fully comp with Bupa in the UK costs around £1600 per annum.

    Average NI on a salary of £18K would be around £1400 with the employer putting in a further sum around the same amount. That's if I have my sums right.

    Of course NI is just a part of the general taxation and so it's no where near a complete picture and if it was it would also have to include state pension, disability etc. but it gives an interesting picture.

    The US has a crazy scheme in that there is no upper limit on 3rd party insurance. In other words it's a free for all instead of fixed cost limits which encourages manic health use for patients.
     
  25. EarthRod

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    Interesting bit about the cost saving of 30% on private operations in Germany and France. Also India cost much less if the operation is carried out there and that includes additional sundries like airfares, hotels etc.

    The NHS definitely needs thinning down; not the front line staff or cleaners etc but the huge senior and middle management structure and the amount paid to 'consultants'.

    But what government has the 'balls' to review and, more importantly, change the NHS management structure?

    I would have no problems in paying the premiums for a private health scheme for myself and family. But what about the less fortunate? They would have to be subsidised and that means we have the same old problem. Huge costs!

    Not only that but I don't think Bupa cover for the really big operations like heart replacement, triple bypass etc. Too costly and has to be done under NHS!

    Yes, nothing is free. Especially for the higher earners - the tax & NI burden is huge and quite alarming when seen in black & white on a pay slip.

    Anyways, my glass is still half full, just! Despite Barclays announcement to charge for current accounts - thin end of the wedge because it won't stop there.
     
  26. kav

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    Has that been formally announced? Only articles I can find are from the Daily Mail and the Sun link in the OP - not exactly the most reliable sources of info. Fairly surprising that none of the usual news websites have picked it up if true.
     
  27. EarthRod

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    Oops, yes - my last paragraph was an afterthought and the word 'alleged' should have been included in it!

    :blush:
     
  28. kav

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    Phew, cheers Alan...!
     
  29. karkus30

    karkus30
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    The problem is that a public service can only be controlled so far and guess what you need to limit spending? Yes, you guessed it, lots of management. The NHS do have strict limits on spending, but it always comes down to the same thing. If you spend your money to buy something for you, then most people will ensure best value within their price range. When you spend someone else's money on someone else the degree of care taken to ensure value is reduced significantly.

    The US has a crazy policy in which employers provide the majority of healthcare insurance and the insurance is totally open ended without any cost limits. So it's a free for all that drives private insurance costs ballistic.

    The thing to realise is that we have a lot of limitations on the current NHS as far as patient service is concerned. Waiting lists for operations are not a sign of lack of nurses and doctors, but are because there is a limit on numbers of operations carried out. It's first come, first served. So, in many cases, despite what it seems there is a defined limit to who gets what anyway.

    Currently in the UK many are sidestepping private health insurance and paying for operations privately at point of need.

    In an economy where there is no incentive to save because of easy credit and poor returns we have to rely directly on whatever we get in our pockets to fund things on the fly. This is a crazy situation. We should be able to save for a rainy day without high taxation, low interest rates and high inflation constantly robbing the pockets of the less well off.

    So, if we could get back to civilised economics it is possible for people to save towards bigger operations and pay a smaller amount for year.y insurance premiums. These insurance companies would be competing and would cap care and operation costs. It would work on the principle that you would pay what you felt was affordable or as you chose, after all we don't all choose to eat at a Michelin Star Restaurant.

    Capped costs would mean that pharma companies couldn't simply get their own way with margins. You would then have choices of private rooms or multi bed wards to suit your pocket. It would drive consultants and care providers to become specialised and more competitive. You could advocate to pay a certain amount of the costs to reduce insurance payments.

    Remember that NI would be removed from both wages and employers contributions so it's not an additional contribution on top of everything else.

    I don't think we can discuss the intricacies of dealing with the unemployed and disadvantaged. At present they would have to receive free treatment based on their position. At present there is no choice for people without sufficient means anyway, so they would get the minimum level of cover. Any major operations could be paid for out of a fund provided by charities or maybe as interest free loans that could be paid back at a later stage, or eventually wiped out as bad debts.
     
  30. EarthRod

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    Interesting comments.

    Prior to 1948 (?) the hospitals were under the control of county councils and poorly funded councils had crappy hospitals whereas the richer councils provided good health service. So overall the medical care was hit-or-miss depending where you lived.

    The NHS now of course is under a central 'umbrella' - same service for all no matter where you live.

    This begs the question: how could the NHS be 'transferred' to a privately funded operation without regional differences?

    Also, how can private funding be managed without the usual 'acquisition' of funds into other pockets, sorry, budgets?

    Maybe a slow 'peeling off' of NHS departments into private hands is the way, with reviews and inspections to ensure a good 'transfer' of funds, staff and accommodation.

    Now for the juicy bit: could current bank departments be similarly transferred to come under government control. This means of course that bank staff would become civil servants.

    ... And all the money locked up in bank vaults would become government property?

    *Cough*
     

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