Anyone want me to do some comparison tests between the G10 and X10?

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Since this offer is only available for a few days, I figured that I would put it in a new thread so that people who are interested will benifit.

I received my 50" G10 a few weeks ago to replace my 3 year old 50" PX60 and was frankly disappointed.

I was able to do some side by side test between the 2 screens as my amp gives 2 x HDMI outputs and my conclusion was that whilst G10 has VASTLY superior 'blacks', the PX60 out performed the G10 in many areas.. The extra resolution of the G10 didn't make much different, and SD footage looked noticeably softer.. But more worrying was that the G10 had some inherent flaws (Banding and Flicker) which bothered me..

Over the next few weeks I tried to live with these problems, but couldn't. I never got SD looking sharp and the banding/flicker was so obvious that it distracted me, every time I saw it... However since I wanted the improved blacks and the gloss black bezel (and I had grown to like having the 50" PX60 on my bedroom wall), I decided to go for the X10 instead.

Whilst I don't believe the X10 will fix the issues (although I am hoping that it might), it only cost me £590 and I see this as a stop-gap for a few years until future generations come along.

So my G10 is going back on Monday.. However to my surprise Pixmania delivered my X10 today, 2 days early..

As a result I have 2 screen which are from the same Manufacturer/generation which I can connect in parallel (As I did with my G10 and PX60) and do some side by side tests, in a 'living room' environment fed by a IDENTICAL sources at the same time.

I know that I am not alone with my concerns about the G10 and wondered if anyone would like me to do some comparative tests for them? If so, let me know what you want I and I will do my best to accommodate.

Personally, if the performance is the same as the G10, then I will be happy as I saved £340.. But if the banding/flicker is less obvious (And the SD is sharper) then I will be extatic..

I just want to stress again.. There is nothing wrong with the G10.. its a fine TV.. But since I am not new to Plamas and have an older set which does not exhibit some of the issues found on the G10, I am obviously going to be unhappy.. But I have to say, if this was my first Plasma and I had nothing to compare it too, I would be quite happy with it.. So.. If you ARE one of the people who is happy with the G10, don't look for problems.. Just enjoy it!

Jon
 

boxrick

Member
Since this offer is only available for a few days, I figured that I would put it in a new thread so that people who are interested will benifit.

I received my 50" G10 a few weeks ago to replace my 3 year old 50" PX60 and was frankly disappointed.

I was able to do some side by side test between the 2 screens as my amp gives 2 x HDMI outputs and my conclusion was that whilst G10 has VASTLY superior 'blacks', the PX60 out performed the G10 in many areas.. The extra resolution of the G10 didn't make much different, and SD footage looked noticeably softer.. But more worrying was that the G10 had some inherent flaws (Banding and Flicker) which bothered me..

Over the next few weeks I tried to live with these problems, but couldn't. I never got SD looking sharp and the banding/flicker was so obvious that it distracted me, every time I saw it... However since I wanted the improved blacks and the gloss black bezel (and I had grown to like having the 50" PX60 on my bedroom wall), I decided to go for the X10 instead.

Whilst I don't believe the X10 will fix the issues (although I am hoping that it might), it only cost me £590 and I see this as a stop-gap for a few years until future generations come along.

So my G10 is going back on Monday.. However to my surprise Pixmania delivered my X10 today, 2 days early..

As a result I have 2 screen which are from the same Manufacturer/generation which I can connect in parallel (As I did with my G10 and PX60) and do some side by side tests, in a 'living room' environment fed by a IDENTICAL sources at the same time.

I know that I am not alone with my concerns about the G10 and wondered if anyone would like me to do some comparative tests for them? If so, let me know what you want I and I will do my best to accommodate.

Personally, if the performance is the same as the G10, then I will be happy as I saved £340.. But if the banding/flicker is less obvious (And the SD is sharper) then I will be extatic..

I just want to stress again.. There is nothing wrong with the G10.. its a fine TV.. But since I am not new to Plamas and have an older set which does not exhibit some of the issues found on the G10, I am obviously going to be unhappy.. But I have to say, if this was my first Plasma and I had nothing to compare it too, I would be quite happy with it.. So.. If you ARE one of the people who is happy with the G10, don't look for problems.. Just enjoy it!

Jon

Blacks arn't quite as good on the x10 but the SD should look slightly sharper all current consumer Panasonics have a degree of flicker. I personally would go back and get yourself an x10.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Yeah, I'd be interested to see your opinion on the differences Jon. Flameproof clothing at the ready I take it?:)
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Blacks arn't quite as good on the x10 but the SD should look slightly sharper all current consumer Panasonics have a degree of flicker. I personally would go back and get yourself an x10.

Ehh?? Didn't you read, or was that a typo.. "go back and get an X10"?

You mean "go back and get a G10"??

Even if the blacks arn't as good, I don't care.. They arn't going to be anything like my old PX60.

Bottom line.. The G10 has awful banding.. The X10 is probably the same but cost me £590.. I am happy to let this pan out and in a few years, but something better.

I don't want this thread to turn into 'opinions'.. I want to help people by giving them some FACTUAL feedback based on my side to side tests.

And the sort of things I can tell you is

1. Which has more obvious banding
2. Which has better blacks
3. Which has more obvious flicker
4. how does SkyHD look on both (can you see the difference)

That kind of stuff.. I don't want to start getting into 'opinion' based stuff.. i.e which colour red looks better, as this subjective.


Jon
 

stormy

Well-known Member
1. Which has more obvious banding
2. Which has better blacks
3. Which has more obvious flicker
4. how does SkyHD look on both (can you see the difference)

Cool, don't you have a PS3? Get a blu-ray movie in there with 1080p24. :smashin:
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Ehh?? Didn't you read, or was that a typo.. "go back and get an X10"?

You mean "go back and get a G10"??

Even if the blacks arn't as good, I don't care.. They arn't going to be anything like my old PX60.

Bottom line.. The G10 has awful banding.. The X10 is probably the same but cost me £590.. I am happy to let this pan out and in a few years, but something better.

I don't want this thread to turn into 'opinions'.. I want to help people by giving them some FACTUAL feedback based on my side to side tests.

And the sort of things I can tell you is

1. Which has more obvious banding
2. Which has better blacks
3. Which has more obvious flicker
4. how does SkyHD look on both (can you see the difference)

That kind of stuff.. I don't want to start getting into 'opinion' based stuff.. i.e which colour red looks better, as this subjective.


Jon

In fairness though Jon, without anything measurable or the means to measure it, it is going to be a subjective thing. Every one of the four points you list will be down to your perception.

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in what you find and respect you opinion but it's 100% never going to be a factual excercise:)
 

stormy

Well-known Member
In fairness though Jon, without anything measurable or the means to measure it, it is going to be a subjective thing. Every one of the four points you list will be down to your perception.

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in what you find and respect you opinion but it's 100% never going to be a factual excercise:)

Plus it could be down to the individual panels too as we seem to have ranges from ZERO banding/posterization to UNACCEPTABLE banding/posterization with the same panels. :rolleyes:
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Plus it could be down to the individual panels too as we seem to have ranges from ZERO banding/posterization to UNACCEPTABLE banding/posterization with the same panels. :rolleyes:

Yeah, there are other considerations too. Jon's personal set up may play a part etc etc. I just don't think we should get carried away and call it a factual comparison:)
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
In fairness though Jon, without anything measurable or the means to measure it, it is going to be a subjective thing. Every one of the four points you list will be down to your perception.

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in what you find and respect you opinion but it's 100% never going to be a factual excercise:)

Lets not get into that...

1. Which has the better black.

Thats not subjective.. Lights off.. Black screen.. Which is darker.. I am sorry.. You don't need test gear for that.... All I am interested in is which radiates the most light when its showing a black field.

2. Which has the most banding..

Both show the same sequence.. Banding can be 'counted'. Its not subjective.. You can give a figure

3. WHihc has the most flicker

Both show the same image.. Which flickers the most.. Again.. Its not subjective.

I could go on.. I am not stupid.. I do know the difference between being factual and subjective.. And if I state something like "The G10 has more banding", I would back it up with facts.


Jon
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Yeah, there are other considerations too. Jon's personal set up may play a part etc etc. I just don't think we should get carried away and call it a factual comparison:)

Eh... Personal setup.. They will have the same signal being fed to them... They will be identical (within reason).

People who have read my posts by now, should realise that I am not biased by any means. I will give fair and unbiased feedback..

But if there is no obvious difference then I am going to say so.. Equally if there are only slight differences, I am obviously going to put this down to differences between setups/tolerances.


Take for example the difference between my G10 and PX60.. Pitch black room.. TVs set to an unused input.... Brightness/contrast set to the lowest position...

PX60 gives of an obvious brown/green glow of x brightness
G10 gives of a much lower glow of y brightness

I can't say what X and Y is, but I can say (without being subjective) that the PX60 is brighter than the G10.. Or another way of putting it.. The G10 has darker 'blacks' than the PX60... Thats not 'subjective'.. Thats fact!

Before people critisize my findings and the way I document them, lets wait to see what I find first.. yes?

Jon
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Banding I could concede, you may be able to measure. Everything else is totally subjective I'm afraid and is down to your own perception. Fact. How you could argue otherwise, I'm not sure.

Did I call you stupid? I actually said I respected your opinion and I'm still interested to see your comparison but don't get carried away with calling this some kind of scientific experiment.

Lets not get into that...

1. Which has the better black.

Thats not subjective.. Lights off.. Black screen.. Which is darker.. I am sorry.. You don't need test gear for that.... All I am interested in is which radiates the most light when its showing a black field.

2. Which has the most banding..

Both show the same sequence.. Banding can be 'counted'. Its not subjective.. You can give a figure

3. WHihc has the most flicker

Both show the same image.. Which flickers the most.. Again.. Its not subjective.

I could go on.. I am not stupid.. I do know the difference between being factual and subjective.. And if I state something like "The G10 has more banding", I would back it up with facts.


Jon
 

stormy

Well-known Member
Just do it Jon, we will save the insults up for when you come and tell us the G10 is crap and the X10 is far superior. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Just do it Jon, we will save the insults up for when you come and tell us the G10 is crap and the X10 is far superior. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

:) I like it...

To be fair, I think they will be the same.. The G10 will obviously be better in terms of resolution.. But everything else will be almost identical... So in truth, my tests won't prove anything.

BUT.. For me, even if the G10 is better, I am still happy, as I don't see the X10 or the G10 as a "TV For life" (or even a TV for more than 2-3 years).. So I am happy to live with the inferior X10 now having paid less than £600 and then upgrade later, wasting a few £100, than doing the same with the G10 and loosing a lot more in the long run.

Jon
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Banding I could concede, you may be able to measure. Everything else is totally subjective I'm afraid and is down to your own perception. Fact. How you could argue otherwise, I'm not sure.

Did I call you stupid? I actually said I respected your opinion and I'm still interested to see your comparison but don't get carried away with calling this some kind of scientific experiment.

You didn't call me 'stupid'... I am just saying that I am not 'stupid'...

I have built a career out of doing this, so trust me, I know what I am doing!!

I am not going to say ANYTHING, if its subjective.. So I am not going to say "The X10 has worse banding".. or "the G10 has better blacks" and leave it.. I am going to say why and how!

But I do have to disagree about one thing.. 'Blacks'.. That is NOT subjective.. 'Black' is black.. You can't have something which is more black than something else... Thats called grey..

In terms of TV, the black is measured by the amount of light it (or doesn't) gives off when displaying black.

So. If you put both in a dark room.. And turn the brightness down so the screens are at their absolute blacks.. You don't need anything to measure which is more black (by this I mean 'giving off more light')...

However, if during this test they give off the same amount of light, but this light is a different colour. i.e one was a muddy brown.. The other a greeny grey.. Then yes.. Which is better? Which is more black?? I agree that this is subjective.... But I am talking about the light (or lack of it) that the screen gives off.

And I can say with 100% certainty measuring this without test gear is not subjective. In the case of my PX60 its obvious (even in a lit room, you can see that the PX60 gives of 'light' when displaying blacks).. In a dark room, they clearly show different colours when displaying blacks.. But in the case of the PX60 there is a lot more 'light' given off than the G10 and I can say with 100% certaintly, that the blacks are better on the G10... If in my X10/G10 comparison one is obviously 'darker' than the other, then I will, say.. If not (or they are similar) then they are the essentially the same and I will say so.

Please rest assured, I am not new to this.. I will not come out saying.. The G10 is crap.. The X10 is great.. I will document my findings and I WILL give my reasons!

Lets go back to the topic.. What do you want me to test.. As others have said, lets wait until I give you my findings before you rip them appart.

Jon
 

airmyx

Novice Member
Just to back up the OP - yes you can clearly notice objective difference during direct comparison WITHOUT equipment. Given the right circumstances.

He's only talking about simultaneously oberserving A vs B and seeing which factor C is higher/lower; not quantifying the 'actual' difference between the two at any given time.

Not that I'd think there is any real need to do such things - obviously the G10 will be blacker than the X10.... its one of the whole 'points' to the NeoPDP technology...


It would be nice to know what the actual, quantifiable difference is though.
 

Autopilot

Distinguished Member
Interesting, thanks for this Jon. Having the two TV's in their natural environment (a living room) playing the exact same feed is about as objective as you can get really without probes and pro measurement software etc. Only issue I see is the lack of calibration. The one aspect I would like to hear about is that might be the most subjective is the motion handling. I would also love to hear what you think of the colour reproduction (as you will no doubt have seen my posts on the subject).

Cheers, look forward to your findings.
 

panman40

Distinguished Member
And were off again !!,:rotfl:.

Jon i would be interested to see the difference between SD shapness side by side please and also Sharpness of HD :smashin:.
Thanks.
 

Jim Di Griz

Distinguished Member

+2:smashin:

With the added caveat that Ive had a PX60 and Ive compared them (next to each other in my house) and the G10 was quite clearly the better set, especially for HD.

Nothing wrong with the PX60 - I still think its a fine set and my mum and dad love it - but its not a G10. :)
 

stormy

Well-known Member
And were off again !!,:rotfl:.

Jon i would be interested to see the difference between SD shapness side by side please and also Sharpness of HD :smashin:.
Thanks.

But he can't do 1080p blu-ray which is going to seriously hamper the G10 results I think. :( Real shame, Jon aint interested in it but its a BIG use for my HD viewing and why I would always stick with a 1080p screen these days.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Jon

Let's just agree to differ with regards to objectivity and subjectivity. Just do your comparisons and post, there will be lots of people interested, myself included.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Lets go back to the topic.. What do you want me to test.. As others have said, lets wait until I give you my findings before you rip them appart.

Jon

Nobody is ripping anything apart Jon, I 'voiced' an opinion. Get of your high horse mate, it's cold enough today:D
 

panman40

Distinguished Member
But he can't do 1080p blu-ray which is going to seriously hamper the G10 results I think. :( Real shame, Jon aint interested in it but its a BIG use for my HD viewing and why I would always stick with a 1080p screen these days.

Yep thats true
 

sinistro

Active Member
I did check the G and X next to each other though they did not had the same source connected but and a big BUT I could see the individual pixels on the X and that made me choose for the G in the end.

If you want to see the size difference of those pixels from the screen you take some visit-card or name-card or whatever you call it and double it, then cut a small piece out of the folded side and then when you unfold it you got a small square in the middle, put this against the screen and you compare hd ready with full hd, then you can see how massive the hd ready pixels are.
 

Jon Weaver

Distinguished Member
Nobody is ripping anything apart Jon, I 'voiced' an opinion. Get of your high horse mate, it's cold enough today:D

You miss understand.. I am not implying that YOU are ripping me appart.

I am referring to the fact that ONCE I post something, people WILL rip it apart!

Jon
 

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