Discussion in 'TV Show Forum' started by backtothefuture, Dec 23, 2003.
or did they just all go fishing
Nah.... I was well-asleep by the time the curtain came down... !
Great film, but the last 20 minutes or so was purgatory.
they went to the undying lands.
....which the elves do when they get bored of middle earth, Frodo and Bilbo were accorded the honour because they bore the ring. Sam joins them later as he was also a ring bearer if only for a short time.
As of course do Legolas and Gimli to close out the entire story .. which makes Frodo's comment to Bilbo about it being the 'last ship' somewhat wrong.
But doesn't Cirdan the shipbuilder go on the last Elven ship with Frodo? If so how do Sam, Gimli and Legolas get across. Wasn't Cirdan supposed to be the only one with the knowledge to build a ship that was capable of getting to the undying lands
If I remember the appendencies properly Legolas actually builds the ship for him and Gimli.
all the book says is that Sam goes to the havens (maybe he gets on Legolas's ship)
so whats this bit about the undying land ? why are they heading there....
You're right, Tolkien cocked-up there in his history.
Without getting the anorak out ... that's where the elves originated and where they still dwell .. it's how Tolkien arranges for elves to be immortal yet no longer present on Earth. Valinor, one of its' names, no longer is part of the Earth but was still reachable at the end of the Third Age.
yea but frodo is not an elf
this is confusing
the Elves actually awoke in Middle Earth, just some god liked them so much he uprooted an island and brought them over to valinor (the only place there was light). Some didn't go (the dark elves) as they were a bit scared of the gods (never trust anybody in power).
It was only when Morgoth after being stuck in the knick for a long time was released and started stealing stuff and killing the light giving trees with the help of Shelobs Mum (after which the sun and the moon were created), that some of the elves went back to middle earth to get their property off Morgoth (a bunch of shiny bright diamonds).
At this point Men woke up. Some had a bit of a weakness for Elven women (Beren and Turin) Spawned a few kids and grandchildred (Elrond and his brother). Elrond desided to stay Elven, his brother wanted to stay human and got a nice Island overlooking Valinor. Gods had enough of Morgoth and stuck him back in the knick. Sauron escaped caused a bit of a stir on the island, it got sunk by the gods, Sauron made the rings, Aragorns relatives decided to become kings of middle earth had a bit of a scrap with Sauron, cut the ring off and LOTR started.
no but the elves thought he deserved to go considering he saved middle earth. He also didn't feel part of middle earth anymore after what he had been through and the morgul wound he received.
hm ok , but how could he not feel a part of middle earth, i mean after all he is a hobbit and what about pippin ,sam, etc ... i mean basically he's leaving home...
and what about gandalf ...is he going to reside in the undying land aswell ?
what was that thing he said about the 'shires' in the end? ie something about saving them?
Indeed .. I was trying to simplify
Tolkien explained Frodo's departure largely because of the wound he received on Weathertop, which would never heal, that's referred to more than once as the main motivation for his departure. He [JRRT] then expanded on this to include all the 'ring bearers' and so Sam is included as well eventually, though many years after the end of the LoTR story. Note Tolkien never hinted that the Hobbits would become immortal, so their leaving for Valinor is to not very well explained IMHO.
The Shire was saved by the destruction of the ring, since had Sauron prevailed the Shire would be destroyed.
Gandalf is not a Man, he is a Maiar, a Lesser God .. he too will live in Valinor, or perhaps leave the realm of the Elves and return to Tolken's version of the 'heavens', many Maiar never entered the World at all.
IIRC from reading The Silmarillion, Saruman, Gandalf, Sauron and the Balrog are/were all Maiar. Morgoth, who Legolas mentioned when referring to the Balrog in his discussion with Galadriel was a Valar, a Greater God, Sauron had been his lieutenant.
There .. time for me to put my anorak away for another day.
So once you go there can you ever return, or is like snuffing (old elvish word) it on earth. You get to heaven, but you can't return
AFAIK Tolkien never stated explicitly, but it seems safe to presume it's a one-way journey along the Straight Path.
Some things just dont need to be explained - either that or the users of IMDB will call them plot holes
right , so in other words they are all 'dead!'
How long does it take to get interesting in the Silmarillion? I've tried on numerous occasions but given up after about 75 pages, it's bloody hard work!!!
The Silmarillion is a labour of love .
It doesn't get easier because it isn't one coherent story, it's a collection of stories which combined provide the history of the first and second ages, ie. for aeons rather than years or decades.
There are some themes running throughout the various sections and they do form a steady progression through the events they describe, but there isn't a single focus such as the ring, or a group of characters because of the time-span no single group dominate. It can be hard going at times and really I think only true anoraks manage to finish it.
My love of LoTR was very heavily based on those sections where Tolkien talked about the history of Middle-Earth. Appendix 1 and one or two others hinted at the ancient times which gave rise to the world as it exists in the Hobbit and LoTR and I wanted to find out more .. that's what The Silmarillion does.
I expect the majority of fans of LoTR love the book for the story it tells, the characters that inhabit it and whatever moral and philosophical ideas they [the readers] infer. For this group The Silmarillion really doesn't contain much of interest, the origins of many things in Middle Earth are explained .. eg, who and what Sauron is, what Amon Sul was, where the Palantiri came from .. but of themselves these insights don't affect this group of reader's enjoyment, they accept these things exist and don't feel they want to know more.
However, for those like me who were enthralled by the thoughts of 'long ago' and how things like these came to be then The Silmarillion is a joy, albeit not easy.
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