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Anyone else get far more rear surround in Matrix rather than discrete dts 6.1?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by pez, Sep 11, 2004.

  1. pez

    pez
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    Howdy, thanks to all for the recommendations on audio hardware over the last few weeks, its been invaluable.

    now that ive got a denon 2805 and ive hooked up the EVO 3bs and added 2 old sony speakers that sound pretty good to act as rear surrounds, ive been tinkering and playing with ES and EX dvds like they are going to self distruct tomorrow.

    Some things ive noticed...

    Star Wars EP2 is GREAT sounding, the matrixed rear surround that comes when its running in Dolby EX is amazing, the start, space ships fly from the rears, through the surrounds, to the front perfectly!

    so i was impressed, I thought id give Lord of the Rings the Two Towers DTS 6.1 a run.

    hmmmm, amp set to DTS EX discrete automatically ok, not much rear surround, the odd noise here and there.

    so i start reading the manual and it states that even on DTS ES Discrete 6.1 movies the rear surround channel is still matrixed into the surrounds, and that when run in DTS ES 6.1 Discrete the hardware cancels out the matrixed sound from the left and right surround.

    so i switch on DTS 6.1 Matrix, and voila, the rears come alive!

    whats up with that? shouldnt they sound the same? after all, the movies normally have matrixed rear chanel audio, and the dts discrete rear chanel is created from it at the studios (according to Dolby that is!).

    why would the rear surround be so sparse in Discrete but cool in Matrix?

    Is it my amp?

    anyone else noticed this with LotR:ttt?

    pez
     
  2. Arcangel

    Arcangel
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    A lot depends on the soundmix. You can't really compare two separate soundtracks from different films to each other. How are you managing to get a DTS ES Discrete soundtrack to play back as DTS ES Matrix? It should decode it as DTS ES Discrete unless you've turned the Matrix OFF and all you're doing is just replicating the information in the side Surrounds out of the Surround Backs.

    Assuming you have the Surround Back speakers switched on. Matrix ON will give you DTS ES Discrete if the disc is encoded in this format. If it's a standard DTS track then DTS ES Matrix would appear on the screen. Dolby tracks will appear as Dolby EX. If you switch to Matrix OFF you just replicate the info from the Surround Left into the Surround Back Left simultaneously, same for Surround Right/Surround Back Right. This would give the impression of a more active soundfield.

    Or are you selecting DTS + PLIIx??
     
  3. Arcangel

    Arcangel
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    Think you might be getting confused here. What it's saying is that if you playback a DTS ES Discrete 6.1 track when you only have 5.1 speakers connected the Decoder downmixes the Surround Back Channel signal into the Left and Right Surround Channels so no components are lost.
     
  4. pez

    pez
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    edit: Back now!

    ok, read this page http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/overview.php?ID=1026399626

    Summarizing DTS-ES 6.1-channel capabilities for consumer playback:


    -The center surround channel is always matrixed into the LS and RS channels.
    -A discrete center surround channel can optionally be encoded as well.
    -A DTS-ES 6.1-discrete decoder will play the discrete center surround channel.
    -It will also subtract the discrete center surround channel out of the matrixed LS and RS channels, restoring the LS and RS channels as independent.
    -Any DTS-ES track, discrete or not, is fully compatible with 6.1-matrix decoders because the matrixed tracks are always present.
    -Any DTS-ES track is fully compatible with 5.1 decoders because the center surround channel information is matrixed into the LS and RS channels and will thus be heard in and between the LS and RS speakers.

    OK, from that we ascertain that every DTS ES 6.1 Discrete ALSO contains the matrixed rear surround on the left and right surrounds.

    edit2:

    has anyone noticed this with LotR TTT ?

    pez
     
  5. pez

    pez
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    right, slight clarification of what ive been listening to.

    LotR TTT, when in DTS 6.1 Discrete, there no music pumped into the rears, just the odd sound effect here and there. Very little use of the rear surround.

    LotR TTT, when in Dolby EX, theres loads of music and sound effects pumped into the rear surround.

    which is odd, because according to the guys at dolby, alot of the rear chanel for dts 6.1 discrete movies is created from the same chanel that is matrixed into the surrounds in Dolby EX soundtracks.

    which is why im confused as to why there such a disparity between the rear chanel in DTS 6.1 Discrete and Dolby EX.

    any else noticed this? or is it my Amp?

    pez
     
  6. Arcangel

    Arcangel
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    Ok. What are you actually getting on the Display when you select the different options? I've checked LOTR TTT and get the following on my Denon KA1SE for the DTS ES Discrete track:-

    SB OFF - the display says DTS SURROUND.
    SB ES DSCRT - the display says DTS ES DSCRT 6.1
    SB NON MATRIX - the display says DTS SURROUND - in this mode the Surrounds and Surround Backs output the same signals.

    You can't select DTS ES Matrix if the format on the disc is DTS ES Discrete.

    The differences you're hearing between Dolby EX and DTS ES Discrete are more than likely just down to the actual mixes for each track.
     
  7. pez

    pez
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    yep, i mistakenly thought that you could select matrixed dts when a discrete disc is in (long day yesterday!) :blush:

    do you hear much through the rears when in dts discrete with TTT?

    still seems odd to me that out of the 6 movies that actually contain dts discrete 6.1 soundtracks, TTT is pretty sparse, why no musical score through it?

    im just worried that its my amp.

    pez
     
  8. Arcangel

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    The surround effects in TTT tend to be subtle rather than in your face (it has the odd moment though). I'm pretty sure your amp is fine. :)

    Star Wars AOTC is a very active mix, as is The Phantom Menace. It all comes down to the actual soundmix recorded.

    If you want another very active surround mix, check out the film Basic. ;)
     

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