Question Any recommendations for ceiling / in-wall speakers?

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Buying & Building' started by uptown47, Apr 23, 2018.


    1. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Hi All,
      I posted a few months ago about speaker placement (Question - Re-decorating room - speaker placement question - picture inside) as I am decorating my living-room and want to install a decent home theatre system.

      I settled on the following layout (ignore the blue speakers - this will only be a 5.1 plus atmos setup):
      speaker_setup.jpg

      Red = Rear ceiling speakers
      Yellow = Atmos ceiling speakers
      Blue = side speakers (not sure of proper name for these sorry?)
      Purple = front speakers

      I'm now getting somewhere with the fireplace:
      IMG_20180421_192350.jpg

      So, I'm at the stage now where I'm looking to buy ceiling speakers for the rear / atmos channels.
      https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00006B...olid=2EDX4LA7EQU8M&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003S8G...olid=2EDX4LA7EQU8M&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

      I also found an "in-wall" speaker which I was looking at for over the TV as my 'centre' speaker.
      https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004L9D...olid=2EDX4LA7EQU8M&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

      I could really do with advice on what speakers to pick?

      Has anyone got any experience of these type of speakers?

      My amp is a Sony STR-DN1080.

      Many thanks for any help/advice/pointers you can give me.

      Cheers

      John :)
       
    2. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      Are you planning a 5.1.4 system so the 4 ceiling speakers are all for Atmos duties?
      Atmos works with a height differential between the surrounds and the Atmos speakers. Having Atmos and surrounds in the ceiling is not going to work well. If this is the case then I would suggest not putting the atmos speakers in.
      You also want the front 3 to be the same make and model so what speakers will you be getting for the front L/R?
      What is your budget?
      Plenty of inceiling/inwall speakers to chose from. I have Monitor Audio ones in my kitchen and they work well.
       
    3. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Hi PSM,

      Thanks for getting back to me.

      The red dots on my drawing are going to be rear channel speakers and I was hoping to use ceiling speakers for these.

      The yellow dots are going to be Atmos speakers and also ceiling speakers.

      So I was going to buy 4 ceiling speakers for the Atmos and rear speakers.

      Do you not think this would work very well then?

      I was originally going to build a shelf above the TV and sit a 'centre' channel speaker on there and then have normal box-type speakers in the front corners of the room (the purple squares on my drawing).

      However, whilst looking for ceiling speakers, I spotted this (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004L9D...olid=2EDX4LA7EQU8M&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it) and thought that it would look better embedded into the plasterboard of my fireplace - assuming that the sound was decent.

      I didn't realise that the front 3 speakers were better being the same type but that makes perfect sense. I'd not decided what type the front L/R speakers would be yet?

      I don't really have a budget in mind but would pay up to around £800 for the right speakers if I had to. I could stretch a bit more if needed.

      The redecoration is being paid for from a re-mortgage and I'm hoping to have money left over to upgrade my car so, if I over-spent on the home theatre it would just come off the car budget!

      I'll have a look at Monitor Audio ones.

      Thanks again for your help.

      Cheers

      John :)
       
    4. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      How you have the speakers shown would be ideal for a .4 Atmos speaker system but I can not see if sounding good how you intend on doing it. Personally I would remove the Atmos plans unless you can get the surrounds lower down. If the surrounds have to go in the ceiling then do not bother with Atmos would be my advice.
      Ideally the centre should also be ear level when seated so under the TV would probably be a better location if possible. Could you go in wall for all 3 front speakers?
       
    5. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Yes, I could go "in wall" for all three front speakers that wouldn't be a problem. I would just put the L/R ones into the plasterboard to the left and right of the TV. Especially if I got three of those rectangular ones? (I was under the impression though that the L/R front speakers were better being as far apart as possible? Is that not the case?)

      I can bin the idea of the Atmos ones. The speakers for the rear channels really need to go in the ceiling as there isn't any natural place for them to go otherwise without looking a bit daft.

      What do you think about changing it to a 7.1 system then and putting "in wall" speakers where the blue squares are on the drawing instead of the Atmos speakers?

      Do you think that would be better?

      :)
       
    6. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      Or put in wall speakers where the blue squares as surrounds for 5.1 and then have the one pair of atmos speakers in the ceiling. So remove the rear surrounds from the ceiling.
      Look up Dolby speaker locations to get the correct speaker angles for the fronts and see where this puts then on the wall. They may not need to be as wide as you think.
       
    7. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Hi PSM, thanks for the great advice. I'll measure up tonight and see how much room I've got to play with for fitting the speakers to the side of the TV. I'll also look at the option for fitting those side speakers.

      I've been reading the Dolby website as you suggested and had a look at the diagrams they've got on there.

      Now, it's back to speaker recommendations? Is there anything I should be looking out for or avoiding when I pick speakers? Do they need to be a certain ohmage? Is there a major difference between the £229:
      https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00006B...7EQU8M&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&tag=av0c-21

      And the £35:
      https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003S8G...7EQU8M&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it&tag=av0c-21

      ???

      Thanks again for all your help.

      John :)
       
    8. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      You really want the impedance to be over 6ohms. The higher the sensitivity of the speaker then generally the easier they will be to power.
      The difference between those 2 will be quality of components and hence sound quality. The only way to find the sweet spot between quality and cost is to listen to them and decide yourself. It is unlikely the Polk will be 6 times the sound quality of the others but you may feel the extra cost is worth it.
      Since you will have a sub then there is little gain from getting a frequency response much below 70hz although will not harm if they go lower than this.
       
    9. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      What about scrapping the rear ceiling speakers and installing bipoles / dipoles where your rear side speakers are. Then installing 2 atmos speakers where planned. I have a set-up similar to this, but because my TV Room has a vaulted ceiling (the vault is transverse not longditudinal) I have a pair of MA Bronze Dipoles at ear height just behind the listeners head and they create an amazing rear effects channel. Maybe worth considering. Would give you a nice 5.1.2 setup, you could then look at MA's for the front. I know mine isn't as Dolby ideally would like it, but it works well and I let Audessey sort out some of the room correction.
       
    10. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      That's great help PSM I'll bear your advice in mind. I'm probably looking around the mid-range price point I would say. I'm no audio-phile but I would really like a decent set-up that's going to serve me well for a decent amount of time.

      Hi Mushii, thanks very much for taking the time to post mate. I have just Googled "what are bipole and dipole speakers" as I've never heard of them. I'm now fighting my way through the technical aspects but struggling a bit with some of it.

      The rear side speakers (the blue squares) aren't mounted at "ear height" though. They are mounted at the top of the walls (or they will be when I pick what's going there and mount them!). So, would that scupper your idea or not??

      I definitely need in-wall or in-ceiling speakers for the 'blue square' positional speakers due to their position?

      Thanks again for all the continued help and advice. It's very much appreciated.

      :)
       
    11. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      You could mount a pair of dipoles in the blue position, at height as your rear surrounds. I think that they would sound better than ceiling installed speakers. But I will stand to be corrected by some of my more knowledgeable peers on these forums. Out of the two set-ups I think the dipoles will give you a better surround experience.
       
    12. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Thanks Mushii. Will look into dipoles. Got a bit of reading to do! Cheers :)
       
    13. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      Did not realize the blue position was so high. Dipoles will work but again I would not bother with Atmos since there will be no separation of the sound.
       
    14. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Yep they need to go high really otherwise they'll look a bit daft. I'll do some reading on dipoles and then make a decision. It seems that Monitor Audio are a good make so will have a look of they do ceiling speakers or in-wall stuff.

      Thanks :)
       
    15. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      *Update*
      Just found these which seem to fit the bill?
      Monitor Audio WT150 5.0 In Wall Speaker Package (Round Surrounds) - Monitor Audio - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

      What do people think of these?
      I could buy two extra round ones and have two round ones behind us. Two round ones to the sides (the blue squares on the drawing) and then the three square ones for the fronts. And use my existing sub?

      They seem to tick all the boxes?

      Although I've read the magnetic grills can vibrate and cause a ratlting noise?
       
    16. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      So you are going to install the rears and sides in the ceiling ? Just out of curiosity have you heard in ceiling speakers in a 5.1 / 7.1 configuration. I only ask because they have a very definite sound that is not like normal surround set ups. You will be very aware that the sound is coming from the ceiling.
       
    17. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      The side ones would be in the walls but the rear I was thinking about ceilings (although still got to research the dipoles that you talked about before making a final decision). I've got ceiling speakers upstairs just for music but not heard 5.1 or 7.1 through them.

      It's just that it has to be ceiling speakers for that part of the room and I do like having some sound behind me .

      Do you think the sound will be too harsh at the rear?
       
    18. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      Are the side speakers going ‘into’ masonry walls? Are you going to be able to drill 8” holes at least 5” into the walls? Honestly try and find a Richer Sounds that will let you dem some MA Bronze or Silver Dipoles in a side configuration as rears.
      I moved mine around in a few positions before I found a configuration that I was happy with. I understand that you want a nice aesthetic but getting your speaker configuration right is just as important.
      That MA inwall setup with a pair of MA Bronze Dipoles as rears and the two surrounds as Atmos ceiling speakers would be killer.
       
    19. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Hi Mushii,

      One wall is a stud partition and the other is an external wall. I didn't realise they were quite as deep as 5" !! So... I think that's out! :)

      Your suggestion sounds really good but I'm worried because of where the right-hand blue square speaker is situated is in a corner. Will it really be able to project sound behind us as we sit on the couch?

      If I'd thought on I would have taken a couple of photos of the room. I'll try and do it later and then you can see. But if you're idea will still work based on you seeing the room then I'll probably go for that.

      Cheers, I appreciate all your help mate.

      John :)
       
    20. dollag

      dollag
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      May 30, 2015
      Messages:
      1,330
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Kent
      Ratings:
      +584
      your better off with utilizing the blue squares as surrounds if your going atmos.

      putting the surround channels in the ceiling will not work, especially if your going atmos.

      surrounds are generally supposed to be at the sides and rears, well at the rear in a 7.1

      in a 5.1 there is movement to put the surrounds slightly behind but if my memory serves me well, they state 90 to 110 degrees from the sides to back is recommended.

      in a nutshell, put the sides in the blue boxes and the 4 atmos in the ceiling.
       
    21. Lesmor

      Lesmor
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Jul 25, 2007
      Messages:
      5,117
      Products Owned:
      2
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      167
      Location:
      Aberdeenshire
      Ratings:
      +2,930
      You need to be very careful what you are doing here as you can get it so wrong

      Firstly if you are determined to go high close to the ceiling with the side surrounds then forget Atmos altogether.

      If you are also determined to put in rear ceiling speakers, as already said it might not sound right

      Here's a controversial suggestion that some of our American cousins install and that is to put all of your speakers in the ceiling

      You need to get speakers with an angled driver

      So that would be L/C/R in the ceiling at the front
      Left and right surrounds in the ceiling
      And rear surrounds at the red dot position

      The advantage is with a 15 deg angle they can be turned to point towards the listening position
      they will all be voice matched and the sound panning will be smooth

      You don't mention using a subwoofer for the bass?

      I recommend looking at these,I installed a pair myself last week
      They are big 8" drivers that go down to 28Hz
      OSD Audio R83A

      The price is €199 Each but if you use the code there is a 25% discount until the end of April

      There is a 6" version but I don't know if they are discounted but you can always email L-Sound and ask
       
    22. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Thanks dollag,

      I've been doing some reading on dipoles and I am leaning towards dipoles for the blue square positions as per Mushii's suggestions.

      However, will post a photo of the room later just in case it clarifies things.

      I also thought about installing the 4 atmos speakers (even though my amp can't run them all at the moment) with a view to upgrading my amp in the future. I'd rather get all the plasterboard bashing out the way in one go and then the plasterer can come and make good.

      I'm running all the speakers back to a 9.1 wall plate so that I can just connect what I need via banana plugs which will easily allow me to expand in the future.


      Thanks for the information Lesmor and the link. I think I'm going to stick with the traditional L/R/Centre though. I've been doing some reading that says those are the crucial channels and really carry your system so I want good sound/direction from those. Also my wife did say last night that I better not be thinking about covering the ceiling with speakers! :)

      Thanks very much though for the suggestion. The more I read here the more I learn and I do appreciate people taking the time to post their thoughts/suggestions and advice.

      Cheers

      John :)
       
    23. dollag

      dollag
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      May 30, 2015
      Messages:
      1,330
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Kent
      Ratings:
      +584
      get some pics up, will help a lot with identifying best placement. hopefully get you up and running :smashin:
       
    24. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Yep, will do. Hopefully have some pics this afternoon. Thanks :)
       
    25. PSM1

      PSM1
      Distinguished Member

      Joined:
      Dec 20, 2008
      Messages:
      26,219
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      166
      Ratings:
      +5,396
      What's on the floor behind the sofa?
      I ask because instead of putting the rear speakers (red) in the ceiling you could have conventional speakers placed on the floor facing up to the ceiling. This sounds weird but I have done it in my dads house before he had stands and it sounded pretty good with a well dispersed rear soundfield. You could then use the red and yellow locations for a 4 speaker Atmos system but I would not bother with the blue ones if they have to go so high. It is a shame you can not get the blue speaker locations closer to ear height since these would be a perfect location with the sofa edged forward a little.
       
    26. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      Hi PSM1, unfortunately there's not the room behind the sofa as there's a door there so people walk that way. My daughter is on her way to my house now (to sign for a delivery I'm expecting) and I've asked her to take some photos and send them to me at work and I'll post them up and then you get a better idea of the space I have.

      I'll see if I can annotate the photos with the proposed speaker locations too so it makes it clearer.

      :)
       
    27. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      I have my dipoles about 4” from the corner of my room on the side walls just behind the listeners head and the surround effects are amazing. The rear sound stage is hugely detailed and steers really well. If you can compromise and lower them to say 1.5m you will be very happy.
       
    28. uptown47

      uptown47
      Active Member

      Joined:
      Oct 18, 2010
      Messages:
      120
      Products Owned:
      0
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      21
      Ratings:
      +6
      I maybe could lower them. I suppose it would depend on their physical profile and dimensions.

      Here's photos of my room with my proposed speaker positions in colours from the original drawing.

      Hopefully it will help to visualise it.

      IMG-20180424-WA0004.jpg IMG-20180424-WA0005.jpg IMG-20180424-WA0006.jpg IMG-20180424-WA0007.jpg speaker_setup.jpg

      I was originally going to have the Left / Right speakers in the corner but I think 'aesthetically' they would look better next to the TV and the Monitor Audio ones would fit there.

      Also, I know that the Centre speaker is better underneath the TV but that would push the TV too high I think and make for an uncomfortable viewing position.

      What do people think?

      :)
       
    29. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      @uptown47 it looks really good. I can see where you are going with your living room. As per my previous email, the MA In-walls will work really nicely with where you are going and will be really discrete. The Bronze dipoles have quite a slim profile and are not obtrusive at all and would look fine lowered at your 'blue' locations. I will take some photos of mine when I get in later, but bare in mind I am also refurbing my AV Room so none of the cables have been run in-wall yet as I was looking to find the best location for them.
       
    30. mushii

      mushii
      Well-known Member

      Joined:
      Apr 3, 2003
      Messages:
      1,412
      Products Owned:
      1
      Products Wanted:
      0
      Trophy Points:
      116
      Location:
      Stoke On Trent
      Ratings:
      +741
      I have a velux window above and behind me in my AV Room. I was watching a movie the other day where it was raining and hitting glass on the rear channel. I couldnt tell if the sound was from rain hitting my velux or if it was rear effects !!
       

    Share This Page

    Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice