Any ideas of how to set up multiple subwoofers better

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Hi all, I have been through a process of elimination and come up with what I think is the best compromise so far of how to setup my 4 subwoofers in the lounge. What I was hoping for is if anyone has any comments or advice about how this could be done better - see the last two lines for the compromises I am currently making please and see if you can help...
I have an almost square lounge with:
Fronts KEF Q900
Surround KEF Q300
Centre KEF T301c
Amplified by Denon AVR-X3600 for surrounds and centre; set in 11.1 mode so that the front power amps are disconnected and preouts used to a Rotel power amp.
I have 4 REL subwoofers, one in each corner:
FL: Stadium 1 (high level input only).
FR: Strata 1 (high or low level input but not both).
RL: Storm 1 (high or low level input but not both).
RR: Storm 1 (high or low level input but not both).
Like many of you, I have these subwoofers not only because I like the sound they make but because I am also limited by my wife's aesthetic rules and they look like black veneered bits of furniture. They also cannot be swapped around as they are at the height she requires for the lamps that are on them!
When I only had the two Storms, I tried (with my then Denon AVR4310) to use them setting up Audyssey on low level inputs. Music (amp set in Pure Direct, Spotify Connect on 320kbps) is as important to me as cinema and I found that when the Storms were connected in stereo to high level, it was infinitely better.
So, in my current setup, I have both front subwoofers high level connected level and cutins set with my ears using "bass slides" and music tweaked over hours and hours until I have them how I deem perfect (my ears are 44 years old haha).
Then, the new Denon now runs Audyssey separately on the two rear low level connected subwoofers. It set the fronts as large (using a bass slide, I can hear them down to 35Hz, so I believe Audyssey) and the surrounds to large (ditto, down to about 40) and the centre at 180Hz. I've left this as it is for now.
Don't get me wrong, it all sounds amazing. However, I read all these forums that say I'm doing it wrong etc etc. With music, in pure direct, it sounds incredible (to me).
The two compromises I'm making are:
1. I feel like I am wasting the front subwoofers potential a bit when in cinema. Particularly the massive Stadium.
2. I can hear that the LFE channel mostly comes from the rear (I have LFE filter at 120Hz as recommended but even set to 80, I can hear it from the rear.
Any comments or help would be welcome. Personally, I can't see a fix without spending loads of money upgrading to REL Series 3 or later on the fronts, so they can have high and low level (but look identical to my wife).
Cheers, Christian.
 
FOUR! Wow. I'm afraid I'm just here to listen to the answers but my first guess would be use REW software and a UMIK1 microphone.
 
As above really. My approach would be to start with REW and an UMIK1 (there's a couple in the classifieds at the moment) and see what you're getting. Then add in a minidsp 2x4HD and time align everything before giving it over to Audyssey, then EQ to taste after.

The big caveat to that though is that I don't use high level connections and this approach won't work with those connections.
 
I really don't want to give up on the high level setup on the front subwoofers for music. So, I have decided the only answer is to either replace the front subs with ones that will take low and high level simultaneously or add more subs. Replacing the Stadium would be tragic and very high cost to get an equivalent that can take low and high level.... in the end, oh no, my wife said "the Christmas tree will be too low down on that subwoofer"... answer "but it would be perfect height if there was a little REL Quake on top of it!"
 
Might be worth a conversation with BK electronics who used to make some of REL subs under contract, they do some super bass plate amps with dual connections not sure about driving high and low simultaneously though ?

You will need to align them though this is fundamental to good bass
 
Might be worth a conversation with BK electronics who used to make some of REL subs under contract, they do some super bass plate amps with dual connections not sure about driving high and low simultaneously though ?

You will need to align them though this is fundamental to good bass

Thank you, I got in contact with them. They have said that the plates are incompatible. It was a good idea though!
 
Another question please which I'd appreciate help with. The high level connection for the REL Stadium... all the online guidance shows it connected to the amplifier terminals with the normal speaker connected too. Can it just connect to an amplifier? So, if I use one of the channels on my Rotel RB985mkii, put the input as the LFE pre-out from the AV amp and then connect the REL Stadium high level to that, will that work? I know it's a 10,000 Ohms or similar, so don't want to break anything!
Thanks, Christian.
 
Hey everyone, an update. I'm gonna get some stick for this. Keep remembering Christian, they're your ears and it is up to you haha!
OK, so I now have six subwoofers in the lounge. Plan, as agreed with @Conrad. was to have two Stratas front corners low level connection to sub 1 out on amp (Sub EQ XT amp), the two Storms rear corners on LL connection sub 2 on amp.
Connect high level to two Quakes set inside the front speakers for MUSIC ONLY (amp in direct mode so all other subwoofers off).
When on cinema modes, front speakers set to 80Hz filter so no output from the Quakes.
So, I tried this and was disappointed... note the following:
1. The Quakes were, I would say as good as the Stratas for high level connection on music, DIFFERENT but as good - and I definitely could have lived with it.
2. BUT... I missed the Stadium. With music it is simply the best thing in the entire world. It adds another dimension.
3. So, I tried the Quakes on low level with cinema, they were awesome when paired with the Storms at the back. They were better than the Stratas.
Before I lost the will to live... I tried one of my original ideas...
Now I know you are all going to tell me off and tell me that I should not be using my ears so much and should have borrowed calibrated noise meters from work! BUT:
I put the Stadium back in front left, it and the Strata in front right are high level only for music.
I connected the Quakes low level to sub 1 and 2, balanced them left:right using the Denon where Audyssey lets you play while measuring the levels.
I did the same with the Storms at the rear.
Then, this is where you will all fall out of your chairs, I put the Storm filters to lowest setting ~30Hz on filters. Checked the left:right balance again (didn't change).
Then ran Audyssey sub eq.
Tried a few movies, tried "Another Life" space drama thing, and I think it is THE DOG'S!
Right ready for you all to have a go now ;o)
 
I should've clarified why I did the filters on the Storms. From twiddling, I found that the Quakes did a good job of managing the LFE channel (+ bass below 100Hz from centre and below 80Hz from surrounds). But the objective here is to "fill the room" when the really low stuff comes out.
With the Storms unfiltered, then you here too much (for me) to the rear of the room. So, I thought, hey let's let the Storms do what they're probably better at than the Quakes, the sub 30Hz stuff. Haha, I tried The Conjuring as one of the movies!
What surprised me is I didn't know how the sub eq would cope with that but it did a great job. I guess it "doesn't know" that those subs are filtered, it just measures and output and levels it right.
 
What surprised me is I didn't know how the sub eq would cope with that but it did a great job. I guess it "doesn't know" that those subs are filtered, it just measures and output and levels it right.

This is exactly correct. I find I get the best results by time aligning all subs using something like a minidsp (but you could equally use the phase control on the subs) and then presenting them to Auto EQ as a single sub. What you've done is basically create a sub-bass pair and then a bass pair of subs to cover the full range.

By having the subs set up in a way that they don't interact much with each other you're minimising the opportunities for cancellations. I'm glad it sounds good. I still think that a mic would be a worthwhile purchase for you as it would be very lucky to have arrived at the best response by chance.

That said, if you're happy with the sound and can avoid that rabbit hole, more credit to you!
 
I am probably boring everyone with this now. So apologies... I am now back to drawing board AGAIN after the weekend two things happened...
1. Speaking to a mate (normally this would be over a pint but nowadays it is ZOOM chat) he said that the REL Q-series high level filters should be much better than the older ST-series and to try a range of music with them comparing. And he was right. So, WARNING TO ALL, when I tried some more acoustical and voice content it was clear that the Quakes are much better as the high level main speaker connected and not the bigger (and older) subs. The warning is that the filters in the old ST series don't actually seem to filter out everything, you can still very slightly hear higher frequencies, so it "discolours" the sound from the main speakers. This is not an issue when they are low level connected as the AV amp only sends the low frequency.
2. I completely forgot that I cannot use the Stadium because the rule from my lovely wife was to have symmetrical (i.e. the same) subwoofers left and right!
So I have returned it to: Quakes high level left and right to mains, Front Stratas low level "sub 1 output", Rear Storms low level "sub 2 output".
But reading the guy who talks about "REL 3D" in this thread:
I am tempted to try that again haha! It's just the pain where you can't adjust the LFE level that will always limit that option no matter how good it sounds.
Thanks, Christian.
 
Have you been able to measure the subs across the seating area and see what they are doing ? I do think something like a mini Dsp would be worthwhile to ensure you'r not misaligned. in many ways listening and measring is the right way round. If you have 6 subs in pairs and your room is symmetrical then it would probably work well with y leads from three outputs of a mini dsp HD, spokesman EQ and crossing over or rolling on/off in pairs
 
It sounds like you have a lot of workarounds (mix of high and low level inputs, etc), despite the fact they work to a large extent for you it's never going to be a perfect solution.

The best way to get the job done properly is basically what conrad suggested in post no.3. Use the low level sub-outs from your denon, pass that to a miniDSP (or equivalent hardware), and send its outputs to the low level inputs on your various subs. Get a UMIK1 and REW and time align/EQ everything to preference (dozens of people on here including myself have plenty of experience with this and can take you step by step with the setup). This will give you the flexibility you need to get all 6 subs working exactly as you want and gives you the greatest scope for customising the sound to your exact preference.

A miniDSP 2x4HD would get the job done, 2x4 means it has 2 inputs and 4 outputs. The two sub-outs from the denon go to the 2 inputs. Output 1 can go to the Strata, output 2 to the Stadium, output 3 via Y-cable to the two Storms, output 4 via another Y-cable to the Quakes. If you want even finer control you could get 2x 2x4HDs and then each sub can be EQed separately. But if you are placing the quakes and the storms symmetrically you can get away with just the one 2x4HD.
 
Thanks guys/gals, I have had a good look on the minidsp website and the tool is amazing.
One thing is for certain, yes call me old fashioned, but two of the subs will always be high level, for music in Direct mode on the AV amp. The AVRX3600 when in direct using the front preouts has a remarkable (for its cost) signal to noise ratio and dynamic range, when passing through my power amp and with the RELs on high level TO ME sounds outstanding with Spotify in 320kbps 48kHz (haven't tried Amazon HD yet!). So that will stay.
Regarding the low level connected subs for home cinema/TV, I have used the sub eq xt and I am very impressed. At the moment, we have a little puppy and mostly are watching crappy TV with occasional Christmas films so we haven't really tested the system properly yet. The puppy needs to be gradually introduced to the sounds of a home cinema set up haha!
Over time, I'm going to see how it goes before considering minidsp. I will keep all updated (and bored haha) don't worry ;o)
Merry Christmas!
 
Something happened at the weekend. Friday we knew the power company were turning off the electricity for half an hour, so I powered off subwoofers ready for this.
I then forgot to power them back on!
I put some music on Saturday and OMG... I don't know whether it is something to do with my amp or my speakers but they sounded particularly good and clearer than normal. I switched on the high level connected subs and it changed the sound from the main speakers!
I was not happy with this! Perhaps, even though it is 10,000Ohms it affects how the amp or speakers work I don't know - you wouldn't think REL would recommend it if it affected it?
So, big apologies to @Ormy @Conrad. @AndreNewman I then connected low level like you have been telling me to do all along. I ran the full audyssey with sub eq ht, and it blended the subs perfectly. Better than the high level connections. I have been wrong all along as I have been comparing high level with low level (but the old sub eq, I have only recently had the new sub eq ht).
So, sorry, you were right, I was wrong.
So, all I have now is two subs on low level. I have all six to set up at some point but putting it on hold for Christmas haha...
Question please: minidsp needs a computer. Other than the BK antimode (which can't do many subs individually) are there any other devices that don't need a computer? I am asking to see. If there is nothing or if it too expensive, then I will set up two pairs using the amps sb eq xt then have to add another pair with my ears!
 
Thanks for the update.

No apologies needed, why should you trust some random stranger on the internet, better that you check and find out for yourself. Now you know rather than having to wonder "what if". There's also definitely nothing embarrassing about changing your opinion in light of new information.

For what it's worth, I think there is a place for high level sub connections but there are some caveats: you need a mic to be able to understand your speakers natural roll off and sub integration, and you need to need to use it. If you have the option of using line level connections it'll almost always be easier.

Basically with high level you're using the speakers natural roll off as the crossover. With low level you're forcing a crossover which is then known and therefore easier to match. You don't lose any of the sound quality of the subs by doing it this way, it's all positive!

Any device that can do multiple subs without a PC is going to be ££££ as it'll involve something like Dirac. Maybe the minidsp DDRC-88A might do it but, to be honest, if you're happy to invest a bit of time, a 2x4HD and an umik-1 would be your best investment.

If you're going to do things by ear, start with the umik. At least then you can measure, adjust, and measure again. REW is free and the learning curve is nowhere near as steep as it used to be, plus there's lots of support here and elsewhere.
 
I'll answer here for the PM too if that's ok.

I think I agree with Conrad about what's happening with the high level connections, I think the crossover is a bit too crude compared to what can be done with a modern AVR and line level drives with crossovers and phase adjustment. The high level is really all about connecting up to a 2 channel stereo system without any bass management, no better way to do it.

It's good you heard the difference for yourself, no substitute for that.

Discovering better ways of doing things is great fun and very rewarding too. I've been bootstrapping myself up from my Dads old valve radiograms, a mono music center to stereo with no tone controls purism, to atmos surround sound, room correction, using the tone controls even, room treatment, REW, auto and manual DSP configuration. It's been fun and the results I get now are a world away from where I started.

Even my super picky Uncle who got me in to purist hifi paid complements after last Christmas' movie sessions and the system is way better now than then.

I get that you are not keen on the PC side of DSP work, fair enough, I've done software development and ran departments of IT and Network departments for super critical customers and I hate the aggravation of futzing with the PC again because JVC autocal stopped working again, MadVR isn't doing something it used to yesterday! The minidsp not talking to the PC again.

From what I know about your system and subs I'd be inclined to try Y cabling the similar and equidistant subs to one AVR sub out, without adding a nearfield sub I think you might be able to get away with two outputs. I was very lucky that I actually got a pretty reasonable response with my two subs without any phase adjustment, if I didn't have a minidsp and umik I think I would have left it like that and been happy.

So give it a go, if you are careful about level matching and the locations are good, you might get an excellent response with only the AVR setting phase and response, no PC required.
 
Thank you everyone for all of your help and support with this. Sorry, I'm not accustomed to forums, "PM" so is that because only the moderator is supposed to answer questions? Hope I haven't done anything wrong!
 
Thank you everyone for all of your help and support with this. Sorry, I'm not accustomed to forums, "PM" so is that because only the moderator is supposed to answer questions? Hope I haven't done anything wrong!
Nothing wrong, it's usually just better to reply where everyone can see rather than privately, that way others can help too.

You asked about the response of the Quakes compared to the Monoliths, I found a couple of measurements that show what I mean.


This is the unequalised response I get with a Monolith & Monolith+ phase adjusted (with Conrad's help) but no eq.

monolithx2.png

This is an older equivalent measurement with the two quakes in the same locations


quakex2.png


The quakes have output much lower frequency than the Monoliths, ok with the Quakes the output at 10Hz to 20Hz is mostly distortion but it's ok at a low level and it's a real thing, I could hear or feel it in my ears. I don't think they would survive very long driven at high volume at those frequencies, they survived Edge of Tomorrow in my flat but as it was a flat we were listening at ~ -30dBm sometimes -25.

The Monoliths are distortion free up to much more than 85dBm but they don't have the pressure in my ears feeling ever. I debated for it seemed like forever about whether to get another Monolith or sell the one I had and get a couple of bigger sealed subs to re-create what the Quakes gave me but louder.

What decided it was a test with the Quakes where my wife told me she hated the pressure in the ears feeling from the really low LFE. I then found a Monolith+ at a nice price not too far away.

You can also see in the graphs that despite the 120Hz max setting on the crossover, the Quakes pretty much give up after 80Hz, the Monoliths carry on, they sound pretty weird and nasty with full range audio going to them but they have a go!

It's all very location dependent though, these are measurements from the two separate positions with the Quakes, they are seriously different.
QuakeFront.png
QuakeRear.png


And combined after EQ, which sounds seriously improved, able to turn the volume up way more and it didn't sound unpleasant, just louder without being uncomfortable.
QuakesEQ.png




Just some encouragement...

Andre
 
Thank you for that, quite incredible really for such a little box... Like you, we listen at maximum-30 to -25dB so we shouldn't have issues with the Quakes losing steam!
 
So, big apologies to @Ormy @Conrad. @AndreNewman I then connected low level like you have been telling me to do all along. I ran the full audyssey with sub eq ht, and it blended the subs perfectly. Better than the high level connections. I have been wrong all along as I have been comparing high level with low level (but the old sub eq, I have only recently had the new sub eq ht).
So, sorry, you were right, I was wrong.

No apology necessary, I'm envious of your experience. That moment when you realise you assumed something incorrect and the realisation brings about a big improvement to the audio, those moments are the reason I enjoy this hobby so much.

Question please: minidsp needs a computer. Other than the BK antimode (which can't do many subs individually) are there any other devices that don't need a computer? I am asking to see. If there is nothing or if it too expensive, then I will set up two pairs using the amps sb eq xt then have to add another pair with my ears!

You only need the PC to edit the settings of the minidsp, it doesn't need to be connected to work once you're done tweaking. Any old laptop/mac will do. If that is not possible some of the cheaper pro-audio DSPs might be worth a look (eg behringer DCX2496) but they will be less user friendly than the minidsp.
 
@Ormy yes you're right, whenever you discover something that make either music, home cinema or both sound better it is a bit of a thrill!
If you get a brand new minidsp, plug one subwoofer input to it, connect four subwoofer outputs but don't do anything with a computer connection, does it default to just being a signal splitter/booster? I.e. no EQ or anything just sending the signal input to the 4 outputs?
 
If you get a brand new minidsp, plug one subwoofer input to it, connect four subwoofer outputs but don't do anything with a computer connection, does it default to just being a signal splitter/booster? I.e. no EQ or anything just sending the signal input to the 4 outputs?

I'm sorry I don't know the answer to that, I don't use a minidsp anymore, I play all my music and movies from a home theatre PC and all my DSP is done in software on the PC. Perhaps someone that owns one can help out or you could contact the manufacturer.
 
Thank you. I'll wait to see if anyone else knows and if no luck then I'll try the manufacturer thanks. Merry Christmas!
 

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