Antibody test accuracy and immunity passports

Miss Mandy

Moderator
I was discussing these tests with my colleagues today as one of them had been looking at symptoms in more detail last night. We're a team of 5 and during a three week period in March we were all unwell which is unusual for us. Having looked at the symptoms list we all suffered from at least 4 of the symptoms each, but for the most part we had different symptoms.
As we work in a secondary school we decided we'd all take the antibody test if the option came up to see if we did have it or not. If we did then we would have less worries about going back to work. We may well have just had some other nasty virus or bug, but we're curious now as coronavirus would explain why we were all poorly in such a short space of time.
 

acatweasel

Well-known Member
It’s quite a difference to have a cold two or three times a winter or having COVID 19 multiple times.
Yes, but which of the 200 viruses causing the common cold are you talking about? Coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses, etc. Usually your immune system kicks each of them into the long grass and then along comes another one that you haven't met yet. I would suggest that getting exactly the same infection twice in a short time period just doesn't happen.
 

bjd

Distinguished Member
Yes, but which of the 200 viruses causing the common cold are you talking about? Coronaviruses, rhinoviruses, adenoviruses, etc. Usually your immune system kicks each of them into the long grass and then along comes another one that you haven't met yet. I would suggest that getting exactly the same infection twice in a short time period just doesn't happen.
Define "a short time period". There are cases of reinfection with the same corona virus after an 80 day period - which is one of the main reasons why more conservative scientists are less enthusiastic about immunity and vaccines. There is, quite simply, insufficient data on this virus to make confident long term predictions.
 

acatweasel

Well-known Member
Define "a short time period". There are cases of reinfection with the same corona virus after an 80 day period - which is one of the main reasons why more conservative scientists are less enthusiastic about immunity and vaccines. There is, quite simply, insufficient data on this virus to make confident long term predictions.
Nominally, years. Where have you got the reinfection information from? The only item I could find is the S.Korean result, subsequently retracted as the methods used were amplifying residual virus RNA.
 

bjd

Distinguished Member
I was not referring specifically to SARS COV 2, but to currently endemic corona viruses. As I pointed out, there is insufficient information regarding the current virus to draw any conclusions.
 

SteveAWOL

Distinguished Member


 

usako

Member
@SteveAWOL
Could you please try to explain this to me. I’m a little confused, if there is preexisting immunity, why are old people less protected although they have been exposed to hundreds of colds while young children only had a handful of colds but seem to be quite resistant.
 

acatweasel

Well-known Member
@SteveAWOL
Could you please try to explain this to me. I’m a little confused, if there is preexisting immunity, why are old people less protected although they have been exposed to hundreds of colds while young children only had a handful of colds but seem to be quite resistant.
Try this for my simplified version:
  • Immunity works largely by recognising proteins in foreign structures.
  • There are short-term and long-term recognition mechanisms. Your immune system remembers previous encounters.
  • Generally speaking, older peoples' immune systems can be thought to be a lot "weaker", even if they have had exposure to similar viruses before. The same applies to immunocompromised people, pregnant ladies and people who are ill with something else at the same time. Older people are on a loser here. Although the argument of previous recognition might help a 40yr old, the deterioration in a 70yr old trumps it by some margin. None of those people can repair themselves as fast as a 14 yr old. (Note: A lot of the deaths at the moment, are created by secondary infections due to the weakening effect of the coronavirus. Bacterial pneumonia often sets in during lung infections due to the weakened state of the patient. Especially if you are older).
  • Pre-existing immunity would be dependent on recognising specific proteins from COVID-19s close relatives.
  • There are over 200 viruses that create a cold (and actually, a few bacteria). There are only 7 recognised coronavirus infections of humans. Coronavirus | Human Coronavirus Types | CDC. You may, or may not have met this little bugger's relatives before.

Hope that helps a little.

The other thing to note is that people treat this immunity thing as if it was simple and black/white. It isn't.

Envisage it as a war with a multitude of weapons and battlefields. If your immune system turns up with the right weapons at the first beachhead, you may not even notice the infection is being beaten.

If your body doesn't recognise the invader, has supply issues or is in a weakened state, the invader will establish itself and create massive damage before the body recognises it and refines the action. That may be too late.
 

acatweasel

Well-known Member
Thanks for the hint. I’m pretty unwell and tired today. Sorry for referring to the wrong person, no disrespect intended.
Usako, hope you haven't got anything nasty. Get a test!

Glad to be of service. Sometimes a 40 year old Biochemistry/Microbiology degree can be useful, especially if you've just retired and have lots of time on your hands. There's never enough info in the media, and too much in research documents for most people.

Interesting fact of the day. Did you know that Bacteria get viruses? Here's an item previously posted for how viruses work on Bacteria. On people (who have cell membranes rather than cell walls), they shake hands at the cell membrane and are welcomed in with open arms. Nasty little buggers.

Study how bacteriophages replicate by injecting nucleic acid into a bacteria cell to create virions
 

usako

Member
Usako, hope you haven't got anything nasty. Get a test!

Glad to be of service. Sometimes a 40 year old Biochemistry/Microbiology degree can be useful, especially if you've just retired and have lots of time on your hands. There's never enough info in the media, and too much in research documents for most people.

Interesting fact of the day. Did you know that Bacteria get viruses? Here's an item previously posted for how viruses work on Bacteria. On people (who have cell membranes rather than cell walls), they shake hands at the cell membrane and are welcomed in with open arms. Nasty little buggers.

Study how bacteriophages replicate by injecting nucleic acid into a bacteria cell to create virions
Thank you for your concern. ☺ Had a test last Sunday, was negative. But I think I had it early March but not over it. Retired too.
 

starfarer

Well-known Member
@SteveAWOL
Could you please try to explain this to me. I’m a little confused, if there is preexisting immunity, why are old people less protected although they have been exposed to hundreds of colds while young children only had a handful of colds but seem to be quite resistant.
La Jolla team's tweet is to clarify their findings from cell paper which was misquoted by many including Prof Sikora.
  • There is no known definitive pre existing immunity to Sars-Cov2 virus. At least for now. Prison, Navy ships, Meat factories, Farms which as we know are high infection rate example shows that overall "naive" or susceptibility in human population to this virus.
  • T cells were detected in unexposed blood samples that was able to bind to some of cov2 virus's protein. La Jolla team only reported the presence of these T cells. They never said this means any form of immunity.
  • What they speculating is that these T cells could help or determine the severity of covid19 disease. In other words, difference in needing hospitalisation vs few days of cough/fever or asymptomatic.
  • The source of these T cells are unkown. They clearly stated in their paper that they don't know the origin with high possibilities that this is from human coronaviruses.

Regardless of whether these T cells provide immunity or helps in fighting disease, what we know for certain from common cold and flu reinfection is that T cell mediated immune alone may not be good enough to prevent disease again.
 

usako

Member
La Jolla team's tweet is to clarify their findings from cell paper which was misquoted by many including Prof Sikora.
  • There is no known definitive pre existing immunity to Sars-Cov2 virus. At least for now. Prison, Navy ships, Meat factories, Farms which as we know are high infection rate example shows that overall "naive" or susceptibility in human population to this virus.
  • T cells were detected in unexposed blood samples that was able to bind to some of cov2 virus's protein. La Jolla team only reported the presence of these T cells. They never said this means any form of immunity.
  • What they speculating is that these T cells could help or determine the severity of covid19 disease. In other words, difference in needing hospitalisation vs few days of cough/fever or asymptomatic.
  • The source of these T cells are unkown. They clearly stated in their paper that they don't know the origin with high possibilities that this is from human coronaviruses.

Regardless of whether these T cells provide immunity or helps in fighting disease, what we know for certain from common cold and flu reinfection is that T cell mediated immune alone may not be good enough to prevent disease again.
:( What worries me and I thought that.
 

krish

Distinguished Member
misquoted by many including Prof Sikora
He has a sketchy reputation. Dishonestly claimed for years to be Professor of Oncology at Imperial College until they took legal action against him. Was one of the doctors hired by Libya to assess bomber Megrahi's cancer condition as imminent terminal, three months to live. Hired by the US Republicans to crap on Obama's healthcare reforms using fabricated data. He's basically a right-leaning science gobsh*te for hire when the usual political gobsh*tes won't seem as credible. Often appear to be business conflicts too.
 

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