Another 'what sub is best for me?' thread!

Private Custard

Standard Member
Hi guys. New member here, joined today purely because you all seem to know what you're on about!

I have a problem that needs a solution.

Kit

Amp - Yamaha RXV-683
Centre - Klipsch RP-404C
Mains - Klipsch RP-260F
Surrounds - Dali Spector One (will be replaced soon)
Sub - Wharfdale Diamond SW150 (the problem item!)

The problem

Amp set to have the FR and FL set to large, music sounds amazing, but movies are too bass-heavy, with the dialogue becoming a bit on the boomy side.

Amp set to have the FR and FL set to small (crossover 60hz). Music seriously lacks bottom-end, and the sub simply cannot keep up with the new Klipsch setup across the front. Movies not so bad, with dialogue becoming clearer as desired, but the sub chuffing away under heavy load. I have actually turned the sub upside-down, to have the port fire up into the room, rather than into the floor, which I always thought was a stupid direction to fire a port.

To run the amp with FR/FL set to small, I need a much more capable sub. I'm in the UK, so appear to lack a lot of options that the US buyer has. In my price range (£500-600), there's the Klipsch SPL-100, the SVS PB1000, or...........? I was also considering a pair of Tannoy TS2.8's, but I'm not sure even a pair of them would have the grunt required.

I have attached a scale plan of my bedroom for reference. Any advice would be cool.
 

Attachments

Gasp3621

Well-known Member
Sounds like you want the biggest impact as you have gone with not so small speakers in such small room. :)

BK Monolith or Mono Plus is very popular choice in UK cause it offers so good value/performance ratio. SVS PB1000 and BK P12-300SB-PR (if size matters) being the next options with that budget. Klipsch SPL line subs (120/150) are too expensive in UK, the rest are not good. Tannoy is not something you want to think about.


Basic Mono (click pictures):

Mono Plus (different driver and 500w rms amp)





P12-300SB-PR passive radiator design. AVForums reviewed this sub while ago, seems great option if one needs to keep the size compact.



Other option would be powerful sealed sub which should perform really good in such small room with room gain. 673£ with free shipping which is slightly over your budget, but worth mentioning. No port chuffing naturally.
 

Private Custard

Standard Member
Thanks for all the links. I have to say, I'd honestly never heard of the BK Monoliths. I guess after years of not really going all-in, I've started to ask just what I can put together with my budget. Sure, the Klipsch kit that I'm starting to collect is pretty serious for a room this size, but it's better to wind dials back, than to to overwork lower spec components. At some point, this will all make its way into a living room!

Next up after the sub may well be a receiver change. I really don't like this Yamaha. It does certain things with its DSP modes that I really don't like. I'd prefer something more honest and less 'fiddly'. For one, why does cyclng through the DPS modes and ending up back on cinema mode magically increase the volume significantly? Stupid thing that's only here because my old Sony receiver started to overheat and shut-off for no apparent reason.

Amyway, I digress. Thanks for the input. Time to do some more reading.

Oooh, I forgot to ask, even though the free items supplied with the Monolith include phono/rca cables, I couldn't find a large picture of the rear. I take it they have all the usual connection options, and I'll be able to run both of my sub outputs into the one sub? Not sure how they work, but the SW150 always performed better with both inputs being populated.

EDIT : Scratch that, I just found the manual. Nice setup instructions!
 
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Gasp3621

Well-known Member
Thanks for all the links. I have to say, I'd honestly never heard of the BK Monoliths. I guess after years of not really going all-in, I've started to ask just what I can put together with my budget. Sure, the Klipsch kit that I'm starting to collect is pretty serious for a room this size, but it's better to wind dials back, than to to overwork lower spec components. At some point, this will all make its way into a living room!

Next up after the sub may well be a receiver change. I really don't like this Yamaha. It does certain things with its DSP modes that I really don't like. I'd prefer something more honest and less 'fiddly'. For one, why does cyclng through the DPS modes and ending up back on cinema mode magically increase the volume significantly? Stupid thing that's only here because my old Sony receiver started to overheat and shut-off for no apparent reason.

Amyway, I digress. Thanks for the input. Time to do some more reading.

Oooh, I forgot to ask, even though the free items supplied with the Monolith include phono/rca cables, I couldn't find a large picture of the rear. I take it they have all the usual connection options, and I'll be able to run both of my sub outputs into the one sub? Not sure how they work, but the SW150 always performed better with both inputs being populated.

EDIT : Scratch that, I just found the manual. Nice setup instructions!
Monolith has been one of the go to subs with movies for 8-10year time that i remember. Price is low, made in UK Essex and the cabinets are peace of art. Customer service/support/warranty and repairs have been done smoothly so no wonder why BKE products are so popular. When i started reading AVF people wanted Mono even in small rooms, these days guys prefer something smaller.. One needs to have understanding wife as the sub isn´t smallest and weights nearly 50kg. But the finish options are great and there could be nice wood veneer that suits the room decor.

You can find hundreds of threads of Mono. There is also owners thread if you want to ask something from owners, which i think will reply in this thread soon too. It certainly feels strong option for you if you are moving your audio gear to living room which we can assume is larger. If you want technical view how it performs, scroll to "summary" of both links. There has been some changes to the amp since these are done and the Plus model is newer.

Don´t use the DSP modes! If you watch blurays or stream movies make sure the front screen says DD TrueHD / DTS HD MA or DD+ (Netflix). And have a look of the crossovers after you have run YPAO. There is also few EQ curves to play with, Flat is selected as default but you could try the Natural which tames the top end if sounding too bright with reflective room. You can also turn it OFF and listen do you prefer your system without any correction. Some do some don`t so worth playing a bit.
 

JFK

Active Member
Hi guys. New member here, joined today purely because you all seem to know what you're on about!

I have a problem that needs a solution.

Kit

Amp - Yamaha RXV-683
Centre - Klipsch RP-404C
Mains - Klipsch RP-260F
Surrounds - Dali Spector One (will be replaced soon)
Sub - Wharfdale Diamond SW150 (the problem item!)

The problem

Amp set to have the FR and FL set to large, music sounds amazing, but movies are too bass-heavy, with the dialogue becoming a bit on the boomy side.

Amp set to have the FR and FL set to small (crossover 60hz). Music seriously lacks bottom-end, and the sub simply cannot keep up with the new Klipsch setup across the front. Movies not so bad, with dialogue becoming clearer as desired, but the sub chuffing away under heavy load. I have actually turned the sub upside-down, to have the port fire up into the room, rather than into the floor, which I always thought was a stupid direction to fire a port.

To run the amp with FR/FL set to small, I need a much more capable sub. I'm in the UK, so appear to lack a lot of options that the US buyer has. In my price range (£500-600), there's the Klipsch SPL-100, the SVS PB1000, or...........? I was also considering a pair of Tannoy TS2.8's, but I'm not sure even a pair of them would have the grunt required.

I have attached a scale plan of my bedroom for reference. Any advice would be cool.
Have you considered the Second-hand market?
 

ak77

Active Member
Hi private custard

Gasp is spot on mate. You get a lot for your money with bk monolith plus. P12 PR from bk is also a great choice in slightly smaller footprint. Other option Xtz10.17 or xtz 12.17;
 

Private Custard

Standard Member
Seeing as this is over budget, I'll pay off the current scary number from the Klipsch kit purchase, and use the time between now and then to continue reading up. I researched my floorstanders for over two years before finally getting the credit card out. The sub will likely be a much quicker decision, as it's primarily based on total output, port firing direction, set-up options, and build quality. BK are currently front runners.

And I'm not getting on with the amp, so I may go Onkyo in the new year......which will be my first.
 

Gasp3621

Well-known Member
Seeing as this is over budget, I'll pay off the current scary number from the Klipsch kit purchase, and use the time between now and then to continue reading up. I researched my floorstanders for over two years before finally getting the credit card out. The sub will likely be a much quicker decision, as it's primarily based on total output, port firing direction, set-up options, and build quality. BK are currently front runners.

And I'm not getting on with the amp, so I may go Onkyo in the new year......which will be my first.
Just keep in mind that with the Onkyos the AccuEQ is not on par with MultEQ XT32 on Denon/Marantz. This applies to subwoofer eq especially, while the Onkyo barely does anything for the sub, you will notice change with XT32 which also has dual individual sub eq which comes handy if you add second in future. Goes long way to get the sub sound good in your room. Large ported sub and small room can lead to bloated overblown bass.. In such case the XT32 has made difference.

The Monolith example will be so much stronger overall and cleaner sounding than SW150 (judging what owners has said about SW150), i have heard Mono but not SW150 - nobody has anything good to say about SW150 though. You will hear/feel new things with it, no doubt as the SW150 is near it`s limits around 30hz or so, while Mono has strong output down to 20hz.

Looking receiver under 1k£ in UK, Denon X3600H/X4500H / Marantz SR6013 offers the most for the price! Onkyo RZ-830 should be good machine with newer version of AccuEQ, but still not on par with Audussey if that matters.

But as i said you don´t have to use those DSP modes in Yammy (press info on the front display so it shows DD/DTS when you watch movie) and you can try those different eq curves to see does it sound better. If you get the V683 working to your liking, you could add Antimode 8033C (for the sub) and be done with it.
 

ak77

Active Member
Gasp, you are a star mate...always full of very sound advice. :thumbsup:
 

Private Custard

Standard Member
Right, I thought it would be worth updating my current status. After a lot of tuning my current setup, I have found a happy spot, where I can have my mains set to large (which helps with music), and also have a good signal going to the sub to help out with the bottom end. The SW150 is still either non-existant, or really boomy though, so I ran an experiment. I blocked the port, and a lot of issues were solved. It all looked a bit Heath-Robinson though! This makes me scared about the ported Monolith, with two more inches and four-times the power!

So, with that in mind, and considering I'm running one el-cheapo 10" currently, I'm strongly considering two 'nice' 10's in sealed boxes. Current front-runner is the BK XLS200MkII (DF), to be stood on 30x30 floor tiles. Waaay more output than my current setup, meaning I should be able to run them below 50% each, and I have two perfect spaces for them, keeping them symmetrically spaced, and near to each floorstander (see attached).

This is within budget too, which is a win, considering I have been dangerously close to spending a grand, but reined myself in!
 

Attachments

Gasp3621

Well-known Member
Right, I thought it would be worth updating my current status. After a lot of tuning my current setup, I have found a happy spot, where I can have my mains set to large (which helps with music), and also have a good signal going to the sub to help out with the bottom end. The SW150 is still either non-existant, or really boomy though, so I ran an experiment. I blocked the port, and a lot of issues were solved. It all looked a bit Heath-Robinson though! This makes me scared about the ported Monolith, with two more inches and four-times the power!

So, with that in mind, and considering I'm running one el-cheapo 10" currently, I'm strongly considering two 'nice' 10's in sealed boxes. Current front-runner is the BK XLS200MkII (DF), to be stood on 30x30 floor tiles. Waaay more output than my current setup, meaning I should be able to run them below 50% each, and I have two perfect spaces for them, keeping them symmetrically spaced, and near to each floorstander (see attached).

This is within budget too, which is a win, considering I have been dangerously close to spending a grand, but reined myself in!
If going cheaper i would pick the P12-300SB from the BK ebay site when they have the basic finish (satin black/white/light oak/black ash) for 346£ + 10£ shipping or XXLS400 (396£). The price difference is so small to XLS200. You gain:
10" -> 12" driver, 50litre sealed cab vs ~18litre. Easily worth it for the long run. You might get lucky if you call them as they often have models which are not put to this site yet.
Phone: 01702511900

 

Private Custard

Standard Member
Gasp, your input is appreciated, but you are the devil on my shoulder, whispering in my ear!!

Ideally I really want two P12-300SB-DF's........but that's £300 over my original budget. I'm watching the bank balance grow, holding back on uneccessary purchases, and saving all my coins. If I can hold on with my current setup for another couple of months, I think you may have won me over!

Two other small things. 1) Where do people go to get two 40cmx40cm pieces of granite to stand the subs on? If I'm downward firing, I'd rather not be firing straight onto carpet, even with a concrete floor under that. And 2) Is it worth my while running the high-level cabling from the RXV683, or will using the LFE outputs suffice for total coverage?
 

Gasp3621

Well-known Member
Gasp, your input is appreciated, but you are the devil on my shoulder, whispering in my ear!!

Ideally I really want two P12-300SB-DF's........but that's £300 over my original budget. I'm watching the bank balance grow, holding back on uneccessary purchases, and saving all my coins. If I can hold on with my current setup for another couple of months, I think you may have won me over!

Two other small things. 1) Where do people go to get two 40cmx40cm pieces of granite to stand the subs on? If I'm downward firing, I'd rather not be firing straight onto carpet, even with a concrete floor under that. And 2) Is it worth my while running the high-level cabling from the RXV683, or will using the LFE outputs suffice for total coverage?
Hah! :laugh: Try to think it as long term purchase and with that in mind really stretch for the best one so no regrets or constantly looking upgrades in near future. I could have mentioned, but start with one good and then take your time saving up for the second. Kinda same story with speakers if people want everything right away they could end up in the upgrading circle soon, better to build it slowly. :)

Ah now they added the P12-PR for a delicious price! But you were after DF..

No idea about the concrete, others will hopefully comment on that. High level connection if you listen music (2.1), for movies the LFE (low level) connection is all you need. BK subs offer you to use both if needed.

"Simultaneous connection of high and low level sources"
 

Private Custard

Standard Member
I'll keep an eye on the ebay page, and hope a pair of black ash units pop up in the coming month.

And if I'm reading correctly, the high level connections plug into my FR and FL speaker terminals, along with my speaker cables, but the sub won't be stealing any of my precious wattage, and won't mess with impedence etc..?

I'll decide later on if I'll be using those connections! Are the RCA cables that come with BK subs of a decent quality, or shall I budget for some QED leads? I'm particularly fond of QED. I ran them in my car for a long time.
 

D1gita1

Active Member
There's a post in the pinned section I wrote years ago about high level connection, might be worth a read if you want to know more about that, but generally these days, not many people use a high level connection, especially if you set your speaker crossovers to 80Hz. The high level connections have virtually no affect on the loading and draws no current, it's basically just sensing the signal.

 
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Gasp3621

Well-known Member
I'll keep an eye on the ebay page, and hope a pair of black ash units pop up in the coming month.
There is now satin black P12 added on site. If you want specifically black ash then call the number and ask directly as they can suddenly get one or two after calling. It wouldn´t be first time. :)
 

Private Custard

Standard Member
Quick update. After getting over a recent health issue, I decided to take the plunge, and have just ordered two XXLS400-DF's!

Crazy, yes, but it really is the final piece in a setup to treasure. Once I have a decent collection of speakers, the only thing I'll ever need to worry about is future amp upgrades. I'm sticking with the RXV683 for now. Gasp, I blame you entirely for spending double what I was originally planning!

I also solved the plinth issue. I bought a nice 25mm thick piece of sycamore, and have made two 400x400mm bases from it. The el-cheapo downward firing SW150 seems to like it, so I'll run with it for now!

Oh, one other thing, BK don't send e-mail confirmation of orders, is this normal? I'll give them a call on Monday anyway to get a rough estimate for delivery.
 

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