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Another Pio 434 question/problem

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Diapason, Dec 3, 2003.

  1. Diapason

    Diapason
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    Hi,

    As I've reported before, I've been having the drop-out problem on the Pio 434 like many others. However I'm having another problem that I was trying to persuade myself was only my imagination, but it isn't!

    Simply put, during horizontal pans against a bright background I occasionally see vertical "streaks" at regular intervals across the screen. It's similar to the "dirty tube" effect I used to get on my Panny CRT, although more regular. The streaks are maybe 4 inches apart, and maybe 1/2 inch - 1 inch thick, and seem perfectly vertical. The thing is, they seem to disappear again when the image is not panning horizontally. It's harder to spot on good sources like DVD (although definitely there), but watching football for example is a disaster. I didn't notice immediately because I was watching only DVD.

    Now, I told my dealer about the problem and demonstrated it to him last night. It took a while for him to see what I was talking about, but he did indeed see the same effect after a while. He's taking it seriously and it will be dealt with along with the drop-out issue. I'm on my second media box, so Pio are now talking about replacing the screen.

    I'm just wondering if anyone else has seen the effect?

    Si
     
  2. Costas

    Costas
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    Definitely not seen it on mine and I have watched a lot of football over the one month since it arrived.
     
  3. wiped

    wiped
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    think i've seen them.
    I've seen them even whit not moving images.
    The easiest way to spot it is when watching e.g. football..
    It's almost like a shadow or mask over the picture
    Try to turn of dnr and see if it helps.

    I first thought you see the actuall screen elements that are divided in horizontal 1 inches parts, but i know that's not the case... :)

    A few thigs
    - The dnr working this way e.g. filtering vertically in some way so this is created???
    - Interference from some other inpup?
    - Seen mostly on bad signals,. on dvd i don't recall it being so bad.
    any other thoughts?

    The dirty tube effect i think is a good description of the problem.
    Put a white image on and watch the screen from different angels and you'll see them... or?
     
  4. Diapason

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    wiped, you're spot on!

    I haven't tried turning dnr off so I'll give that a go. I *thought* I could see them on the pure blue screen my DVD player outputs when you hit stop, but I again thought I was probably imagining it. However if you look at the plasma from an acute angle they seem to become a bit more visible.

    I was wondering if I have a cable interference problem alright. The media box is on my hi-fi rack with a lot of other stuff, and there's a serious mess of wires at the back. Might investigate this further if I get a chance.

    Let me know if you have any success with any settings, etc.

    Does anyone think better SCART leads would help?

    Si
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    This is a video processing issue. It is one of the issues I noted when I saw the 434 at Scottish HIFi show playing HD material. I think it's a false contouring artifact.

    Gordon
     
  6. Diapason

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    So Gordon, basically what you're telling me is that there's nothing I can do about it...?

    That's not great news!

    wiped, I tried turning DNR off and it didn't really help from what I could tell.

    Si
     
  7. StumpyBloke

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    Hi guys

    Is there any more news on this? I seem to have the same issue on my 434 too :(

    Cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  8. joys_R_us

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    Strange, I looked for it, my Pio 434 doesn't seem to have it. Maybe it is a source or power supply issue.
     
  9. lumpsucker

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    One point to note :

    Early reviews of the Pioneer 4th Gen were done on the first batch of 434's and R04s. There are split views on this forum on the 434. My guess is that most negative reviews are based on evaluation of the first batch of 434 / R04's. This would seem to be supported by the lack of negative views (football apart) of the 504 which, apart from being a completely different panel, has the modded R04 in all cases.

    I think hat most dealers have sold their demo 504's due to limited availabilty so there ain't many 'proffessional' revews to be had.

    I can only say that my 504 has only 2 faults apparent to me...........football (a plasma wide weakness, and black levels, a definate Pioneer weakness).
     
  10. Brogan

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    No issues with my 504 apart from it's not big enough...:rolleyes:
    Funny how you get used to the size so quickly (and no smart comments please...;) )
     
  11. Costas

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    I agree with your all of your comments however...football is better on the Pioneer compared to the others I have seen. Regarding the black levels we make so much hype in this forum but personally I do not see it as a real issue. I cannot see how we could say Panasonic has better blacks. It is blacker black probably but what does it mean? Is it really more real or true or better? In my opinion, only a matter of taste.
     
  12. MAW

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    You're certainly right there, the only movie you actually need a totally black black in must be Men in Black! Not actually a common colour in nature. The main point Panasonic try to make is that the very deep black level gives them more opportunity to do many shades of grey above this. How well it works in practice is in the eye of the beholder. The increased detail level onthe pioneer screens offsets this issue to a degree, to me at least. The only issue I have with the pioneer is the way they've covered the connectivity issue. I have more devices than it has connections. And can't use the YUV switching on my amp if I get a HDMI DVD to get around it.
     
  13. Diapason

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    I spoke to Pio here about all issues so they've replaced my media box. Looking at the serial numbers, I would say both boxes were from the same batch. The new one had all the same problems (including dropout, which Pio Ireland still claim they've heard nothing official about) so they have now taken the first one for testing and are talking about replacing the screen. Suspect nothing will happen this side of Christmas, but I'll post when I have an update.

    Basically, for me this dark banding issue is probably the single most irritating thing about the plasma. If I could get that and the dropout thing sorted I'd be happy.

    Si
     
  14. StumpyBloke

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    Hi Diapason

    I'm just trying to clarify if your vertical "streak" problem is the same as mine. Are the streaks like a mottled dotty effect? i.e. not pronounced streaks with pronounced edges?

    I've had a new media box which cured the drop out issues so I'm just left with the "streaking" now. I think I had something similar on my old Sony 36" CRT - its like there is some gauze over parts of the screen.

    cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  15. Diapason

    Diapason
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    Yeah, it sounds the same. It's like the background fuzzies that you can see if you look closely at bright scenes, etc. all congregate together into bands at regular intervals across the screen. The streaks do seem to have reasonably pronounced edges, though, and they're always in the same place on the screen.

    Turning MPEG NR On seems to make the problem worse if anything.

    I've found it pretty hard to explain to people, and some don't see it straight away, but now that I've noticed it, I see it on virtually all horizontal pans. It's extremely distracting. Most plasma foibles I can live with, but as I say above, I find sport to be virtually unwatchable with this problem.

    Being slightly pessimistic, I have a sneaking suspicion that this won't be sorted any time soon. On the flip side, I can't believe that other 434 owners on here haven't noticed it during critical viewing, so maybe there are some "good" versions out there. We'll see!

    Si
     
  16. ROBERTT

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    I have the Pioneer 434HDE. I can see the effect you are describing but I have only one slight band which is very faint and cannot see it unless really looking for it. I have a Isotek mini-sub mains conditioner and all sources are plugged into this using Isotek screened mains leads. Maybe this is making the difference??
     
  17. StumpyBloke

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    Diapason

    I spoke to Pioneer's Plasma repair people (an independant company) (as requested by Pioneer) who were going to come out and bring a loan screen with them (a 433) whilst they had mine in for repair. Anyways, I cancelled it because I didnt want to be without my 434 over Christmas (aaahhhhhh :D ). Do you think I should try to get this sorted with Pioneer themselves or let this company come out and do whatever? This streaking is really REALLY doing my head in now - and I'm convinced there are more than ever now, including a horizontal one - however I know that could be my imagination.

    Any advice really appreciated.


    ROBERTT

    It could be a power thing I guess but I unpluggled everything from my adaptor except for screen and tuner to see if that made a difference but it didnt. However, I dont have a proper adaptor like you.

    Cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  18. Diapason

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    StumpyBloke,

    I know the feeling of the head being done in! I honestly can't believe there aren't more people on here complaining about it, as I think it's an *enormous* issue. The fact that there aren't many complaints gives me some hope that there are actually screens that aren't suffering from this problem, and that maybe I (we) were unlucky enough to get a bad batch. Funnily, I also have myself convinced that they're worse than ever now, but I think it's simply that I know what to look for.

    At this point, I can't really advise on what to do to get the issue sorted. Last thing I heard (yesterday) Pio Ireland are simply going to replace my screen. I'm not sure if they've admitted there's a problem as such, but at least they're taking me seriously. I am hoping that a later batch will sort the issue out. The thing is, I don't really think the screen is at fault. Gordon certainly seems to think it's a processing issue, and despite knowing absolutely nothing about the technicalities (!) I think the same. I've yet to get my media box dropout problem sorted out, so I'm also wondering if the new media boxes maybe don't suffer from this problem, which might explain why more people aren't seeing it.

    Anyway, Pio are struggling to keep up with demand here (as we all know) but I am assured that there's a new one earmarked for me in the next shipment. I don't expect anything will happen before Christmas, but one way or the other I'll post any results to the forum. Keep me posted on any progress you might make!!

    All the best,

    Si
     
  19. StumpyBloke

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    Hi Diapason

    Thanks for replying. Unfortunately, I've already had a new Media Box and whilst that has stopped the drop out issues, obviously that doesnt resolve my "dirty tube" phenomenon
    :(

    Did you report your problem directly to Pionner or to one of their 3rd party repair companies to get your issue resolved? The repair centre I spoke to wanted to take away my screen (and in all fairness to them, leave me a loan screen) but I really cant see what they can do to fix the issue and I can just see myself being in a to-and-fro situation.

    Thanks for your help.

    Cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  20. Diapason

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    Stumpy,

    I actually reported it to my dealer, a very helpful and personable chap who prides himself on service. He then got onto Pio for me. He has all the right contacts and can move things along. Plus, he has a lot more clout than I do!

    I don't think anyone will be able to fix it as such, so I don't blame you for not wanting to give up your screen. To be honest, I think I'd take it up with Pio directly if I were you. I don't think your screen is "broken". I'd like to hear an explanation of what's going on, or even an acknowledgement that there's a problem.

    The thing is, if it's actually a design flaw, what are we to do? I can kick up a fuss indefinitely, but that won't get me what I want. I must admit, I've been eyeing plasmas running in pubs and shops recently that sell for a lot less than the Pio, and I'm not a happy camper.

    I thought about asking my dealer to take back the Pio and get me a Panny, but from what I can glean, Panny's support in Ireland is not up to the standard of Pioneer, and if I have a problem with a Panny screen it can take months to get resolved. So I'm in a bit of a quandary. In any case, as long as Pio are listening (and they are so far) I'm going to give them every opportunity to sort things out.

    It's bad news that the new media box doesn't sort out the problem. Not unexpected, though!

    I was in my parents' place during the week, looking at my old CRT. Despite its many flaws, I think I'm starting to miss it...

    Si
     
  21. Costas

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    Guys,
    I have been following this thread closely since my earlier comment and the inputs you have been making. I do not know how it helps but no matter how much I try I CANNOT SEE AT ALL what you are describing. I tend to look closely at details and I am sure by now I should have seen it. Definitely not on my screen.
    Does this mean that this could be a design flaw that could vary from screen to screen or production batches?
     
  22. Diapason

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    Costas,

    This is good news :D

    To be honest, I don't even consider myself to be a stickler for picture quality, and I see this all the time now. I can't believe that a more critical viewer wouldn't be put off by this, and I'm 100% sure there are some seriously critical viewers here!

    Hopefully it is a batch issue. Who knows, maybe that's why Pio have been so quick to offer me a replacement screen, no questions asked. It could be that they don't want to admit officially that there was a problem with earlier batches, but will sort people out when they ask. Certainly, I was one of the first to get a screen so I'm sure I have an early generation model.

    In any case, thanks for your post. It's given me hope :smashin:

    Si
     
  23. Costas

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    There is one key good point that you are mentioning Diapason.
    From all my experiences with Pioneer they always sort it out when people ask. I am therefore sure, you will be happy sooner or later! Courage my friend !
     
  24. StumpyBloke

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    Hi guys

    I've just had a reply back from Pioneer on their support site and it says:


    Hi,

    I have passed your deatils through to our engineering dept. who will contact you to arrange a visit, but the likelyhood is that this will not be unyil the New Year.

    Hope this will be satisfactory.

    Regards.
    Customer Relations.


    Hopefully this will start the ball rolling. They also mentioned that they can not replicate the problem on their own 434, so here's hoping!! :)

    Cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  25. Diapason

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    Nice one, Stumpy. Here's hoping for the best!

    Costas, thanks for confirming what I suspected about Pio -- that they want us all to be happy and will do their utmost to sort things out. That was what my dealer said, and that was his major reason for recommending the Pio in the first place. So far, they have been excellent. I can't fault them for their standard of service at all.

    I must admit, I'm feeling much better after this little exchange this morning.

    In other news, I had a brief play with Digital Video Essentials last night. Some of the sequences look *incredibly* good. It just shows what the plasma can do when fed a top-notch source. That pleased me greatly!!!

    Si
     
  26. StumpyBloke

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    Aaahhhh now then, dont get me started on DVE!! :D

    I had that the other day and had a right good play with it. It seems pretty good I must say, but, correct me if I'm wrong (I normally am), I couldnt see anything relating specifically to Plasmas and/or contrast. Have I missed something here? :rolleyes:

    Cheers

    Rich :hiya:
     
  27. Diapason

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    Hmm, I just assumed it was too late in the evening and that I just hadn't found the bit referring to setting contrast on plasmas :)

    It's a tricky one, alright. Perhaps someone knowledgeable like Gordon could wade in and suggest how to use DVE to set contrast...??

    To be honest, I'm surprised there wasn't at least some mention of it. I really did think I'd just missed it.

    Si
     
  28. Costas

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    Guys,

    If you check relevant recent threads in this forum (just pick up 434 subjects) you will indeed find that setting contrast is the only parameter that you cannot precisely do using VE, AVIA or THX opt.
    Plasma nature!
     
  29. Diapason

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    Indeed! Still, I remember reading a while ago on the forum that Gordon had a suggested method for helping to set Contrast using one of the Avia tests. I can't remember the exact details (and haven't got time to search at the mo unfortunately) but I was wondering if there was some reasonable method to get things in the right ballpark.

    After about 30 seconds looking at a test pattern, my eyes seem to forget how to work normally!!!

    Si
     
  30. MAW

    MAW
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    Costas, is yours a 50 or 43? Thought you had a 50?
     

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